Linux

[korrupt1]

Out with the old:micro$ft...in with the new.....Linux


thinking about doing it

[Belgium]

Check first if all your peripherals support linux...

Best thing to do is to go for a dual boot system first, and have the option of starting either linux or winblows.

http://www.geocities.com/epark/linux/grub-w2k-HOWTO.html

[gsxcorey]

yup, i agree w/ belgium

[korrupt1]

Check first if all your peripherals support linux...

Best thing to do is to go for a dual boot system first, and have the option of starting either linux or winblows.

http://www.geocities.com/epark/linux/grub-w2k-HOWTO.html

friend of mine in Wisconsin jus linked his network through mine and was checking....says all should be good if i head that way......I guess however he set it up his still uses al the MS programs...runs faster...etc....and his came with FF in the bundle so he is up and running alreday on 2 pc's in his house and new laptop he got yesterday is being switched tonight

:dunno


he is supposed to be sending me more info tonight on it all


good info there!

[fjorn]

To see if you really want to try linux, I'd suggest a live distro CD such as Knoppix first. You don't have to install it, just boot off the CD. It's also a good way to test your system to see what's supported.


http://knoppix.net


If you like it, then look into dual booting. I use one drive, with multiple partitions. I'll be happy to help you setting things up if you want. Just know that my support is limited being 2,000+ miles away. :comperror

[korrupt1]

To see if you really want to try linux, I'd suggest a live distro CD such as Knoppix first. You don't have to install it, just boot off the CD. It's also a good way to test your system to see what's supported.


http://knoppix.net


If you like it, then look into dual booting. I use one drive, with multiple partitions. I'll be happy to help you setting things up if you want. Just know that my support is limited being 2,000+ miles away. :comperror


:cool

my frined suggested SuSe 9.3....said he had real good luck with that

[fjorn]

BTW:

Here's my partitioning schema on my dual-boot system:

shawnf@fjorn:~$ df -k
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/hda2 883540 150704 732836 18% /
/dev/hda1 24418768 10674876 13743892 44% /WinXP
/dev/vg00/lvol1 6684464 2562156 4122308 39% /usr
/dev/vg00/lvol2 2064316 167592 1896724 9% /var
/dev/vg00/lvol3 1540044 512208 1027836 34% /opt
/dev/vg00/lvol4 2064316 33792 2030524 2% /tmp
/dev/vg00/lvol5 15367716 12347848 3019868 81% /home
/dev/vg00/lvol6 4194172 1994212 2199960 48% /Slackware
/dev/vg00/lvol7 786404 256072 530332 33% /cdimage
/dev/vg01/lvol1 30735440 14969700 15765740 49% /mp3
/dev/vg01/lvol2 25623788 12811528 12812260 50% /data
/dev/vg01/lvol3 6160192 5805812 354380 95% /vmware/XPpro-Home
/dev/vg01/lvol4 6291260 6225644 65616 99% /vmware/Win2K
/dev/vg01/lvol5 6160192 6120640 39552 100% /vmware/Slackware


I haven't booted into my Windows partition for ages... Although, I do use the VMWare instances of windows for Work (necessity) and testing. Otherwise, Windows is :ban for the most part.

[fjorn]

:cool

my frined suggested SuSe 9.3....said he had real good luck with that


SuSe is okay for beginners. That was the second distro that I used many years ago. I got away from it because of the bloat factor.


Slackware all the way for me. :hooray


The reason why I recommend for people interested in trying linux to use Knoppix is because it's not installed. You just drop the cd in and go. Doing it this way, you get a feel for what it's like to use Linux. If you don't like it, you can just throw the cd away. You don't have a lot of time invested in configuring and instaling.

[R1Budha]

if you want easy to use, easy to install and VERY well supported Linux for newbs...Fedora all the way.....

:fact


in fact i run it on all my systems including my servers..........


we also use it for almost every server in the entire ISP i work for.......................

[korrupt1]

so many good ones to try...yet so little comps around to run them


sigh.....I need a job to get another 3 or 4 comps...then I should be set huh?

[fjorn]

Fedora is good for newbies as well. Actually, almost anything with a graphical installer and autodetection of hardware is. This would include SuSe/Fedora/RedHat/Mandrake/etc.

However, for servers I disagree. Even in a minimalist install, these put too much stuff on the system leaving a greater chance of vulnerability. A distro with a more selective install such as Slackware or Debian is a better choice. Hell, even LP's BSD is a better choice than SuSe, Fedora/RedHat, or Mandrake.

[fjorn]

so many good ones to try...yet so little comps around to run them


sigh.....I need a job to get another 3 or 4 comps...then I should be set huh?


Why do you need 3 or 4 computers?


http://vmware.com


There is an open source similar project out there as well.

[gsxcorey]

agreed, fedora for newbies

[R1Budha]

Fedora is good for newbies as well. Actually, almost anything with a graphical installer and autodetection of hardware is. This would include SuSe/Fedora/RedHat/Mandrake/etc.

However, for servers I disagree. Even in a minimalist install, these put too much stuff on the system leaving a greater chance of vulnerability. A distro with a more selective install such as Slackware or Debian is a better choice. Hell, even LP's BSD is a better choice than SuSe, Fedora/RedHat, or Mandrake.no they don't.
i can select each individual component i want or do not want.
Or alternatively, i can select a generic type of install.

they also do some things which i prefer over many of the others in how they structure their configs.

as to vulnerabilities, haven't had a problem on any of them.

[fjorn]

Fedora is good for newbies as well. Actually, almost anything with a graphical installer and autodetection of hardware is. This would include SuSe/Fedora/RedHat/Mandrake/etc.

However, for servers I disagree. Even in a minimalist install, these put too much stuff on the system leaving a greater chance of vulnerability. A distro with a more selective install such as Slackware or Debian is a better choice. Hell, even LP's BSD is a better choice than SuSe, Fedora/RedHat, or Mandrake.no they don't.
i can select each individual component i want or do not want.
Or alternatively, i can select a generic type of install.

they also do some things which i prefer over many of the others in how they structure their configs.

as to vulnerabilities, haven't had a problem on any of them.


With Fedora, and even Red Hat Enterprise Linux, you cannot get very granular with the install. As to SuSe and Mandrake, it's been a while but I doubt it's any different than they used to be. With Fedora, sure you can modify the package selection some, select server, workstation, minimal, all groups. But, you cannot get as granular on the package selection as you can with Debian or Slackware. I know, I've done it numerous times. I've even gone into the kickstart configurations and tweaked some stuff there. But, you still cannot get rid of particular packages that don't need to be there if you don't want them. :fact

With Slackware or Debian, you can get extremely granular with the package selection.

[fjorn]

BTW, as to the configs, are you referring to the redhat-config gui type stuff? Or are you talking about the configuration files themselves? Again, the gui config tools don't let you get as granular. Nice way to do things if you're in a hurry, or don't know what to do.

But, true power lies at the command line and manual modifications of the config files. :ninja

[R1Budha]

BTW, as to the configs, are you referring to the redhat-config gui type stuff? Or are you talking about the configuration files themselves? Again, the gui config tools don't let you get as granular. Nice way to do things if you're in a hurry, or don't know what to do.

But, true power lies at the command line and manual modifications of the config files. :ninjano im talking about how certain config files, like apache configs are not as easy or particulary global in Debian vs fedora.

and sure, i can get to the point were i only have the absolutely essential 7 items installed with some distros, but i dont need nor desire to do that as their is not enough savings in memory/proc power etc as the time it takes to do it.

it's a losing proposition and not worth the investment in time in my opinion.

and since we run all 20k plus mail users through one fedora server, i guess it works quite fine.

[fjorn]

I've worked with httpd.conf files on various distros as well as Solaris, HP-UX and other systems. The only thing that really changes is the location. The typical httpd.conf file is not that different from platform to platform. Even the httpd.conf file that comes with Netscape Iplanet, or IBM's WebSphere isn't that different.

Fedora will work as a server, it's just that it's designed more as a workstation IMO. BTW, if you took the time to actually come up with one very tightly built install on a server and used that as your base for a kickstart config, it'll be worth the time you spend. I have my kickstart server configured and it takes 10 minutes to install a fully functional system. :fact

[R1Budha]

I've worked with httpd.conf files on various distros as well as Solaris, HP-UX and other systems. The only thing that really changes is the location. The typical httpd.conf file is not that different from platform to platform. Even the httpd.conf file that comes with Netscape Iplanet, or IBM's WebSphere isn't that different.

Fedora will work as a server, it's just that it's designed more as a workstation IMO. BTW, if you took the time to actually come up with one very tightly built install on a server and used that as your base for a kickstart config, it'll be worth the time you spend. I have my kickstart server configured and it takes 10 minutes to install a fully functional system. :factThat would work if all of our systems were identical, but they are all different and most are dedicated to a sole purpose.
Mail server front end machine (virus/spam filter custom install)
Mail server backend (delivery and pop machine)
database/registration sever and spoof dns server for multitennant dwellings
Bridge
dns Servers (real)
backup machine (yes thats all it does)
webserver for standard pages
custom built firewall
application server
etc etc etc

if there were many multiples of the same things, then yes, however most of our stuff utilizes custom built and configured programs that are as a base available seperately but then interfaced together for security and robustness.

btw, we dropped debian a while back due to their slow asses not keeping up.



everybody has different opinions on Linux, and it's usually based on the specific job your doing with it.

But if your a newb, fedora is definately the way to go as it has, hands down, the best "newb support" out there.

[fjorn]

That's why I'm saying you build a baseline and go from there. We have varied services running on our RHEL systems as well. But they all start from the same basic load, and then we add the services we need to them.

Some of our servers are:

CVS
Http
Application support/development
Backup
Database (MySQL, Oracle, DB2, Postgres)
System monitoring (HP-Openview tie-in)
Security
Nightly builds of our application development (this is a huge process and the box it's on doesn't even blink)
IP Telephony
Kickstart

Hell, the environment I'm doing this migration on will have 13 Linux systems in it with 4 different purposes. Yet, they're all starting off with the same kickstart configuration.


Play around with kickstart, you'll find out that it really isn't that bad. You'll save yourself hours on installation and builds. :fact

I won't disagree with Fedora for being a Newb's installed OS. But, I do say to download and boot from a Knoppix live CD and play with it for a few days or weeks and see if you like it before installing it.

Not everyone is going to like Linux, but Knoppix is a very safe way for them to try it. :baby

[korrupt1]

<-----learning......carry on with issue of debate.

:laugh

[fjorn]

All ya need to do right now is download Knoppix and play with it for a few days.

http://knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html


If ya like it, then look into installing a distro. :comperror

[korrupt1]

All ya need to do right now is download Knoppix and play with it for a few days.

http://knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html


If ya like it, then look into installing a distro. :comperror

we have no thumbup guy so here ...use your imaginantion

:thumbup

[R1Budha]

you can also try http://www.ubuntulinux.org/

it's like the fedora for Debian.
Tehy also have a bootable "live CD" here:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveCD

here's the real deal.

Fedora and UbunTu, and any others like it, are going to be the most up to date and most cutting edge of the Linux projects. They are released more frequently, have more new items included in their releases and will always be at least 6 motnhs to a year ahead of the Slackware/Debian/Red Hat/Suse distros.
This is why they were created. To try out new things and test them.
While this may not be great for the corporate server environment, it IS for the home user, as it integrates the latest hardware detection as well as the latest kernel updates all the time.
plus they are meant for non Unix geeks who dont want to know everything about Linux, but instead want to see something somewhat familiar (as in windows look) and somewhat functioning the way they are used to seeing. Having said that, they are also every bit as powerful as the "Enterprise" distro's and every bit (if not more so) as useable.
The other plus for a new user is, amazingly, that they are TARGETED at the cross over or new user!!
Which means that if you have problems or questions, they have without a doubt, the largest and friendliest knowledge base and "family group" for support.
They encourage users to ask questions in their forums, unlike most of the enterprise editions where a newb question gets the typically idiotic answer of "RTFM" or "man *****"

this means that for a new user, it's really the only good choice.


as to using the command line Interface, yes true power lies there, and most of the old guard unix users want to live there, but guess what, it's kinda like DOS was to windows, more and more of the functions that old guard unix guys love, are being integrated into the GUI's for average users.

It'll never go away, but for Linux to be truely a "for everyone" OS, it'll be relagated to testing and obscure, realtively unused commands in the very near future.
people who want to relive the glory days are dwelling on the past, and are no different than UNix people always have been.

i"I don't need a gooey, I'm a REAL computer person."
yeah a really old and inflexible one. hence the reason Unix fell by the wayside for a long time.

Linux distro companies have discovered this FACT, and thats why Gnome and KDE were written and continue to be updated.

The AVERAGE user doesn't want to be bothered with learning EVERYTHING about the OS, they want it to be easy and fun and simple.
Hence the reason Windows exploded. It was. And is.

The REAL benefit to Linux, is that unlike Windows, it's open for everyone to view and modify. Which allows the AVEARAGE user, to do just about anything they want, by merely searching oin the web, finding something cool and installing it from a simple easy to use package based installation program.
No need to learn to compile from a source code (or even learn what the hell i just said from that matter).

Sure, there are utterly robust version of Linux without any graphical interface at all, and they require way more knowledge than most users ever desire to have, so steering toward them is the ultimate mistake that can be made.

Stick with distro's that are specificallt targeted at the newbie lever Kor and you'll be much happier in the short and long term.

:fact

[fjorn]

One thing to keep in mind though about the "public" versions of Fedora is that they are the test bed of their corporate counterparts. While there's nothing wrong with it, you do have to realize that such a fast "push to web" market is going to cause some issues. Fedora was good at FC1, sucked at 2, and blew chunks at 3. I haven't tried 4 yet, but supposedly it's a lot better now. I'm not picking on Fedora specifically, as almost all public distros are like that.

For the record, each distro does have it's purpose and have their own release cycles. Typically, the enterprise versions have a release cycle of 12-18 months. This also includes Debian stable. Debian does have a testing, and a certification level as well and those are released relatively quickly as well. Probably as often as Fedora.

Slackware is a totally different breed of distro. It's goal is to be "As UNIX like as possible" while being very stable. There are no release schedules, and it's released when it's felt that it is ready. I have the official cd's from v8.0 up to 10.1, and looking at them, it can vary from a 6month release to 11 month release cycle. It all depends.

In regards to support, you can joing mailing lists, or do google searches. I do both, and while some people on mailing lists can be a bit harsh, most are downright helpful. The key to getting the help on these lists that you need is to be very clear and specific on what you did, how you did it, and what you've done so far to correct it. If you're not sure, just be up front and say you're a complete newbie and you're not sure where to go.

Here's a good start for Linux User's Groups (or called LUG's) in almost any area:
http://www.linux.org/groups/

My reference regarding the command line having true power is that in almost every instance I have run across so far, the command line gives you more options to do things than the GUI counterpart does. Yes, your average new user won't know much, if anything, about it or how to use it. But, for administrative reasons, you should know how to do both. If you rely solely on GUI, you'll be fucked in a heartbeat once you can't use your GUI. Like, say for instance when you X configuration gets corrupted somehow, or you change hardware and it's not detected automatically. There's other reasons as well, such as if you go to another jobsite and they are far more strict than you last.

For the record, I use both GUI and command line. It depends on what's available, what I need it to do, and what's faster. Speed of administration is key to me, yet I learn how to administer things both ways if at all possible for the exact same reasons I stated above.

It'll never go away, but for Linux to be truely a "for everyone" OS, it'll be relagated to testing and obscure, realtively unused commands in the very near future.

Disagree with you completely on this aspect, while you deal with the public sector more than I do, command line will never become obscure and relatively unused. Perhaps if, and when, Linux ever gains more of a market share in the "average home user" it might not be used by them much. But, given that Linux is what it is, it'll never go away.

people who want to relive the glory days are dwelling on the past, and are no different than UNix people always have been.

i"I don't need a gooey, I'm a REAL computer person."
yeah a really old and inflexible one. hence the reason Unix fell by the wayside for a long time.

You really have no clue do you what we UNIX people are like do you? UNIX didn't fall by the wayside by any means. It has always been very much in use over the years. The "problem", if you want to call it that, is that it's traditionally expensive and ran on even more expensive hardware that your average home user or small business owner couldn't afford. Not until Linux gained in popularity did it become even a real option for your average person.

For the record, UNIX has had a GUI interface long before GNOME, KDE and others. These have always been maintained, and made to be userfriendly to a degree. BTW, for the record, Gnome is a POS front end and is being dropped from at least one distro in the very near future. KDE is no different than Windows, IMO. Verybloated. Sure, it's customizable, but it's still bloated.

BTW, why is it that the people who work on Fedora and some of the other "fast release" cycle distros want to make things look like Windows? IMO, Linux is not Windows and shouldn't look like it if you don't want it to. Such is the beauty of Linux, I don't have to have it that way. But, many distros are going the route of wanting it to look like that other OS.

The REAL benefit to Linux, is that unlike Windows, it's open for everyone to view and modify. Which allows the AVEARAGE user, to do just about anything they want, by merely searching oin the web, finding something cool and installing it from a simple easy to use package based installation program.
No need to learn to compile from a source code (or even learn what the hell i just said from that matter).

Yes, the real benefit is the open source code to view and modify. However, even so there are some restrictions on it, but not that bad. In regards to your part about installation, I disagree. There's various package management utilities out there, and not all the time is stuff release in an easily installed package. At times, you MUST compile from source. Oh, that's really hard to do if they learn how to read the INSTALL or README files.

Sure, there are utterly robust version of Linux without any graphical interface at all, and they require way more knowledge than most users ever desire to have, so steering toward them is the ultimate mistake that can be made.

Who's steering anyone towards a non-graphical version of Linux? I'm certainly not. Sure I browse the forums in a text only mode at times, but it's far from the ONLY way I browse. Rather, it's a very small percentage of how I do.

I'm surprised at you Budha. You're really showing your ignorance of *NIX, and it's general users/administers, in your post. A side that's rarely seen.

[gsxcorey]

let me chime in here with all my infinite knowledge...



:corn


i'm done

[fjorn]

BTW, no offense meant on any of the post to ya Budha. :beer

[DeFlankoDesigns]

its settled...

[gsxcorey]

i won't lie i stuck w/ the easier versions as i like the .rpm's etc...i normally loaded blackbox but i loved the easier distro's and also feel that all new linux users should start with them or else they will get discouraged and leave. I don't use linux anymore as for business and many other reasons i use windows as it's just more practical, but i'd love to see linux pull along side windows. That way all these apps, drivers, etc will be there for linux also! i want them 50/50 in the market place

[R1Budha]

fjorn, you're missing the boat completely.
i was not speaking of you directly, i was speaking to korrupt1.

HE is the one asking for opinions, and HE is the one with what appears to be no real practical knowledge of LINUX.

Therefore, i am speaking directly to him on what HE should be looking for in a LINUX realease.

HE should be looking for one that is simple, practical, user friendly, and able to be easily navigated, and quite possibly look very similar (if that is what HE wants) to something that he is already familiar with.

I really dont care what you use, what corey uses/used what LP uses or what I use for that matter (and i use several variations of Linux including Unbuntu, Fedora 2, Fedora 4, Debian and SuSe).

I care more what he can learn and easily use quickly and with the best support.
That is going to be one of the "fast to market" ( :dunno ) distros that are specifically designed for the cross over user (meaning Fedora, Unbuntu etc)

as to what you do with Linux, so what, again, it doesn't really matter to me.
Do you have more Linux knowledge than me? Probably, but it's not necessarily relevant at all.
Just like i guarantee i have more Server 2003 knowledge than you. So what? Not really relevant.

Korrupt1 is looking for a possible replacement for windows on his home machine from what I've been reading, and thats what i am speaking too.


as to your comments that i'm showing my ignorance...
maybe i'm showing my comprehension of the request instead.......

[fjorn]

its settled...



:laugh :laugh

[fjorn]

I'm not disagreeing with you on what you're saying for a beginner's distro to start off with at all Budha. I've said before that Fedora, SuSe, Mandrake and some others are good for beginners.

As to knowledge, I think it's fully relevant. I wouldn't go to someone who had absolutely no experience with something and ask for their suggestion, and I can almost guarantee you'd do the same. I'll readily admit that you have more knowledge on Win2003, because I have yet to administer one at all.



:beer

[fjorn]

BTW, Kor, here's some good info if you want to read through them:

http://tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/index.html

http://tldp.org/HOWTO/DOS-Win-to-Linux-HOWTO.html

[korrupt1]

wow....you guys are killa...every one of you....I have learned so much in the past few days.....that has been alot of reading....some Dling of new products and such(thanks to everyone on the messenger thread also..its all working good now...least on her end)
I didnt mean for any of this to get heated...but that happens from time to time on a public forum I suppose.....when I opened this thread...I wanted to learn....and learn I have...what is gonna be the best for me in the short term? dont know yet as I have just been reading as you guys put up links and I head for em.

all sides have inputted some good knowledge and thats what I needed most of...cuz for me...thats gonna be a big undertaking wiping my system out on "my baby" and starting new with a OS I honestly havent even heard of until almost 2 years ago...and have not ounce of knowledge about in any way. So I am learning.....and thats what its all about to me.....I watch this thread closely and want to know as much about comps and software and such as humanly possible because I want that to be my new way of life.....I am tired of sweating my ass off in some attic to pull a line t something I dont care about(fire protection)and ant to get myself a new life,job etc.....and learn and be comprehensive in doing so. I :bow to you all in helping me down my little road here.

[R1Budha]

its settled...i always lose that fight....


cause i dont allow search engines to cache any of my pages anymore....

:twisted:

[fjorn]

its settled...i always lose that fight....


cause i dont allow search engines to cache any of my pages anymore....

:twisted:


Wonder why... ;)


As to my hits, there's nothing related to my website. That's all shit posted on the web. Of course, "fjorn" has become a somewhat popular name since I started using over 12 years ago. :corn