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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-24-2006, 10:17 PM Thread Starter
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I don't support our troops

Catchy title, eh?

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...mment-opinions

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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-24-2006, 10:35 PM
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hes a bitch, he and fuckers like him do not understand. when i was in you didnt fight for a political end you do it for the guy next to you. i personally cant think of anything positive in that culture or in that part of the world. they hate us im ok with that i hate them. they kill more of their own people for their religious blaberings( however wrong according to the koran) than we do. the call for jihad and setting off car bombs etc which kill iraqi citizen including women and children is a travesty and an attempt to keep them 500 years behind the rest of society. i wish there were a way to kill all of them involved in terrorist actions and let the rest of them build their own country.
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-24-2006, 11:35 PM
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first i served 8.5 years in the military (6 years active) and 2.5 in the national guard. I love our military and the guys in it.

I've learned to not be a supporter of this war for many reasons.

i think that guy does make some valid points. when i was in i never expected parades or people to be happy i was overseas. I think what that guy terms support is different then what others do. i support poeple like firehawk and he knows it and i've told him to ask if he needs anything. on the other hand i won't be seen on the news saying how much i support him, i'm glad he's doing what he is, etc...i wish he wasn't over there and it's nothing to be jolly about. i think that's what this guy is getting at to a point. i'll support them but war shouldn't be turned into a damn super bowl game. at first everyone was so happy, loved the bombings, watched the news all the time, but now things are different. the last few years war isn't all it's cracked up to be. the media holds a lot of responsibility imo

where i disagree w/ that guy is that i understand his point of the guy pulling the trigger as the person ultimately responsible, but then again you really can't have a military that does things when they want or you can get those around you killed. i also see his point about having a military who blindly follows orders. i don't think it's the guys responsibility putting the trigger to stand up tot he poloticians. it's the commanders and until they speak up the guys further down't won't and shouldn't in my opinion. the military is setup proprly to work and also have checks and balances. i doubt that guys knows but several generals did retire out of protest for the war, but there just wasn't enough to make a HUGE difference. until they speak up...the rest of the military should do as they want.

what is that guy really forgetting? the military does what AN ELECTED GOVERNMENT tells them to. HE IS THE ONE that can write and demand for impeachment, etc...the guy pulling the trigger is just as responsible as a reporter who writes about the problems, but doesn't write about the solution....WRITE SAYING YOU WANT TO IMPEACH WHO SENT THE MILITARY THERE! that is where he is wrong imo...

very good article and g ood points, i agree w/ some and not with other parts...I DO SUPPORT THE TROOPS THOUGH AND HAVE MANY FRIENDS THERE AND IN THE STATES


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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-25-2006, 04:13 AM
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jesus christ, alex.....you FREAKED me out for a second....

can't read the article, filter is blocking it. can you guys post any of the text?


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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-25-2006, 04:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
can't read the article, filter is blocking it. can you guys post any of the text?
Here is the text from the link above...

Warriors and wusses
I DON'T SUPPORT our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on.

I'm sure I'd like the troops. They seem gutsy, young and up for anything. If you're wandering into a recruiter's office and signing up for eight years of unknown danger, I want to hang with you in Vegas.

And I've got no problem with other people — the ones who were for the Iraq war — supporting the troops. If you think invading Iraq was a good idea, then by all means, support away. Load up on those patriotic magnets and bracelets and other trinkets the Chinese are making money off of.

But I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken — and they're wussy by definition. It's as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn't to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest but to remember to throw a parade afterward.

Blindly lending support to our soldiers, I fear, will keep them overseas longer by giving soft acquiescence to the hawks who sent them there — and who might one day want to send them somewhere else. Trust me, a guy who thought 50.7% was a mandate isn't going to pick up on the subtleties of a parade for just service in an unjust war. He's going to be looking for funnel cake.

Besides, those little yellow ribbons aren't really for the troops. They need body armor, shorter stays and a USO show by the cast of "Laguna Beach."

The real purpose of those ribbons is to ease some of the guilt we feel for voting to send them to war and then making absolutely no sacrifices other than enduring two Wolf Blitzer shows a day. Though there should be a ribbon for that.

I understand the guilt. We know we're sending recruits to do our dirty work, and we want to seem grateful.

After we've decided that we made a mistake, we don't want to blame the soldiers who were ordered to fight. Or even our representatives, who were deceived by false intelligence. And certainly not ourselves, who failed to object to a war we barely understood.

But blaming the president is a little too easy. The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying. An army of people ignoring their morality, by the way, is also Jack Abramoff's pet name for the House of Representatives.

I do sympathize with people who joined up to protect our country, especially after 9/11, and were tricked into fighting in Iraq. I get mad when I'm tricked into clicking on a pop-up ad, so I can only imagine how they feel.

But when you volunteer for the U.S. military, you pretty much know you're not going to be fending off invasions from Mexico and Canada. So you're willingly signing up to be a fighting tool of American imperialism, for better or worse. Sometimes you get lucky and get to fight ethnic genocide in Kosovo, but other times it's Vietnam.

And sometimes, for reasons I don't understand, you get to just hang out in Germany.

I know this is all easy to say for a guy who grew up with money, did well in school and hasn't so much as served on jury duty for his country. But it's really not that easy to say because anyone remotely affiliated with the military could easily beat me up, and I'm listed in the phone book.

I'm not advocating that we spit on returning veterans like they did after the Vietnam War, but we shouldn't be celebrating people for doing something we don't think was a good idea. All I'm asking is that we give our returning soldiers what they need: hospitals, pensions, mental health and a safe, immediate return. But, please, no parades.

Seriously, the traffic is insufferable.

Last edited by CBRAngel; 01-25-2006 at 04:29 AM.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-25-2006, 09:15 AM
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waiting to see what you think firehawk...it's a good topic imo. as long as people don't get carried away w/ the thread.


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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-25-2006, 11:23 AM
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Pretty difficult subject to reply to. I agree with some of his points, and disagree with others.

First off, I totally agree with all the people that say that "we volunteered, so we asked to go to war". Yep, that's true. People enlist for MANY different reasons. Unfortunately, there's people that enlisted for reasons other than going to war. Too bad, so sad if it happens. You signed on the line, and you should have been prepared to accept the consequences. This is the military, not summer school.

Since I did sign on the line, I'm here to do a job that the country wanted me to do. Whether the reason for being here is right or wrong is WAY besides the point now. If you signed the line to serve the country, you get to do her bidding. Me and every other soldier is putting their necks on the line, everyday.....for what? If this war is a lost cause and wrong, what a shame it is that we keep losing America's best for nothing! That's bullshit. I have to believe otherwise to keep going everyday. I have other reasons for being here.

It doesn't matter if I support this war or not. I support the man next to me, and that's all. I'm here to fight, to make sure that every other guy around here goes home. We're all in this together. Anyone that has never experienced that feeling will NEVER understand. I'm proud to be here with these guys, and as kneedragger eluded to once before, there's a part of me that loves it. When I go home, it almost feels like a part of me is missing.

Now, here's the touchy part.....I appreciate that people at home care about us. I appreciate that the public supports us. After slogging away out here, it's nice to have someone stop me in the airport and say thank you. It means SO much to hear that. The public learned a very horrible lesson in the way it treated soldiers after Vietnam. They won't let that happen again.

BUT....I don't expect it. I'm not here to win Bush a good public image or make people at home bow down to me, like I'm some kind of hero. We're here to do a job. Rescuers that save people in times of crisis, are heroes too. The firefighters that went into the Towers and the Pentagon were heroes. People look at them in a totally different light than they did before 9-11. People finally woke up and realized that these servicemen were willing to give their lives to save another. Where are all the "support the firefighters" tags now? They deserve that pat on the back too! Anyone that does a dangerous job to serve other people love a pat on the back once in awhile. However, I don't need that pat to keep doing my job. I love to do my job.

I think, as the article says, it has become somewhat "fashionable" to support the troops. People do it now to show support for the country. Not many people may like Bush, but they want to make sure the tools of his warfare are looked after. If it has become a fad to support the troops, then who cares? Can you think of another fad that is based on something of better substance? I truly believe that the public wants to support the troops because we're human beings....citizens of the United States....and doing a dangerous job. Think if you would thank a firefighter for rescuing your cat or a policeman for recovering your stolen property. Thanking troops is no different.

Why do we say 'thank you' at all? How many times do you say it during the course of a day, and not even think about the reasons why? Why is this author not bitching about Americans throwing "thank you" around to everyone they see, whether they mean it or not? Is it more appropriate for them to say "thank you" to the 17 year old working the McDonalds drive thru, than to say it to soldiers fighting overseas?

Bottom line? I appreciate the thanks, just like any other person would. However, I do not expect it, and will NEVER ask for it. If someone wants to hate me for "killing Iraqis", then that's their view. Strangely enough, I fight to make sure they can have that opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that's what makes America so great.


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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-25-2006, 02:41 PM
 
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If you dont like it....... . That is what I say!
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-25-2006, 02:44 PM
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good post. i agree with supporting the troops,b ut i do hate that it has become a fad and fashionable as it loses it's meaning. that's just my .02

i hate the flag waving idiots that act like it's a parade and they just won some game. it's just my opinion but i will thank them, support them, etc...but what i fear the most is that the media and the public is turning war into something like a video game or they hear of 1-5 deaths every week to the point that it loses it's meaning. it's sad imo...


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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-25-2006, 03:44 PM
 
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The winners are not to be judged

I saw it on R1 forum yesterday but what to expect from them. I'm glad it's being actually discussed here due to higher number of intelligent people.

I'm an "equal opportunity" person when it comes to politics. I equally hate them all: pro-war, anti-war, conservatives and liberals, socialist Michael Moore and his right-wing opponents, etc. etc. There is nothing good to expect from politicians but attempts to deceive and exploit you. Little people and primarily middle class are going to finance political scams with their sweat-earned money no matter which party is in power.

What difference would it make without the war? You'd never see your tax money in any form. Clinton and democrats wasted my money on inefficient redundant social projects I don't qualify for anyway. Bush wasted it on war. In both cases half of it ended up in private pockets whether Defense Industry or municipal contractors. With my occupation (techie) I favor the Defense Industry coz it creates 100% American tech jobs in the age everything is moving to India. There are other good reasons for the war: Defense Industry innovations which drive the overall technical progress, the aforementioned employment, and don't you hyppocrates forget about the oil and geopolitical interests. Would we survived without the war? Absolutely. But it won't hurt us anyway. The bottomline is it's happened and there is nothing you can do about it, so try to look at the positive side and pahleeeeese, don't look for any ethics or morale in politicians' decisions... it's all about money.

It's unethical expansion war, so what? Not the first one and not the last one. Get over it. Countries are formed as result of expansion wars. You wanna go hundreds years back and restore the justice? There is a Russian saying "The winners are not to be judged". Anybody on this side of the frontline should be happy the war made continental US safer (or at least attempted to), and secured startegic oil resources for your SUV for decades to come.

As far as helping I think your taxes covered it already including annual bonuses for Haliburton employees. I doubt there is shortage of anything on the front line. Do you seriously think of it the same way as real critical war like WWII? If it becomes critical (hypothetically) than sure, rationing and "domestic front" all the way. Otherwise those ribbons sold at supermarkets are nothing but printed political statements. You feel like making such statement, go ahead. I personally hate anything "political" so you won't see those ribbons on my car. And for crissake you pay a dollar and clear your consciense? It'll take more than that: primarily writing to the soldiers (it's the Internet age, doh?). Friends is what they miss over there, not material supplies: clothes, food, ammo, etc. And bikers certainly miss riding/racing which leads to my next point.

Soldiers coming home sure can afford trackdays, but I feel like it won't hurt covering a couple for them so they can do it like every week upon return without even thinking. That's my plan for a good friend. I don't give a fuck about the war, pro or against. Only people who risk their life in Iraq.

Sorry for the rant

Last edited by bad-mofo; 01-25-2006 at 03:48 PM.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-25-2006, 07:14 PM
 
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oh look, an uneducated, big mouthed idiot with an agenda wrote something for a medium that has one of the fastest receeding readership rates in the world, and he titled it something to get people's attention so they'd post it on forums and blogs.........



so what.

idiots abound.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-26-2006, 10:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R1Budha
oh look, an uneducated, big mouthed idiot with an agenda wrote something for a medium that has one of the fastest receeding readership rates in the world, and he titled it something to get people's attention so they'd post it on forums and blogs.........



so what.

idiots abound.
Hey, I resemble that remark!

Well, here are some of my thoughts... remarks really.

1) First of all I am extremly uncomfortable with the title "Hero" The only hero's I know are dead or retired, and while I have seen many valorus deeds; I have also seen far too many awards for valor given for merely political purposes. Hence the title hero should not be used loosely.

2) We were the recipients of a lot of great stuff from complete strangers. However, I was occasionally annoyed by some people's total lack of comprehension of what it was that they were supporting.

3) I also disliked the fact that some people were just sending things so that they could feel good about themselves.

4) I know that there are many other people out there that mean well, and maybe if I had stayed in college I would have different feelings about the war, but as it is having been a participant, I KNOW we are there for a good cause and that we are doing great things for other human beings. While the struggle is hard and will be long, the long term benefit will be a very beneficial to our interests. And I am not talking about material benefits. Don't forget that we took down a regime that harbored terrorist training camps, offered asylum to known terrorists, paid pensions to the families of suicide bombers, called for attacks on America as they shot at our Aircraft that were enforcing the No Fly Zones (imposed by the UN for the protection of his own people).


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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-27-2006, 12:02 AM
 
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With having to title his pile of shit article like he did in order to even get anyone to half ass read his garbage he's spewing, he's nothing more than a Marilyn Manson of journalism. I think he should go sit back on his fat ass and suck down some more glazed doughnuts and diet coke and sit there and lick the sugar coating off his fingers while the very people he's trying to use as a stepping stone to gain attention to himself and his fucking article defend his rights to be able to post that shit in the first place.

He's a waste of space on the face of the planet.

that's my .02.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2006, 07:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint
With having to title his pile of shit article like he did in order to even get anyone to half ass read his garbage he's spewing, he's nothing more than a Marilyn Manson of journalism. I think he should go sit back on his fat ass and suck down some more glazed doughnuts and diet coke and sit there and lick the sugar coating off his fingers while the very people he's trying to use as a stepping stone to gain attention to himself and his fucking article defend his rights to be able to post that shit in the first place.

He's a waste of space on the face of the planet.

that's my .02.
amen
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2006, 10:58 PM
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You should support the troops and maybe not the policy and why we are there. I was in the military and was 24 hours away from going to Bosina and 48 hours away from going to Saudi. I feel for the troops and their familys. For the boys that are not EVER going to return home. I hope that everone comes home in one piece. I had a close freind that was in Iraq and spent a year there and came home and was told he did not have to go back and a few weeks later he got the news that he was going back and put a bullet in his head..... I guess he would rather die in his own way then have a chance to go and have been killed another way....The fooked up thing is that he could of gone and endured another tour and cme home safe. BTW his brother(another great freind) was ther and had an RPG hit near him and he got schrapnel in his face due to the hit and now he is ok phicically and now he is just fooked in the head.... post trumatic stress syndrome or what ever it is called. He is now a recruiter for the ARMY....... Man I would hate to have his job now knowing what he has been though having schrapnel in his face and knowing his brother killed himself due to the war and asking people to join up....... he is fooked for life...man what a fucked up sitiation to be involved in.....


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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-28-2006, 11:39 PM
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blackhawk down was somalia
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-29-2006, 12:04 AM
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you are correct bosina would of been much colder I was light infantry cold weather somillia would of been too hot for me


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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-29-2006, 12:05 AM
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post fixed


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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-29-2006, 01:44 AM
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