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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-03-2006, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
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good debate on R1F

Corey, you are a law major so you might like this one....

http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showt...09#post2512309

I agree each is entitled to his own opinion, but a little debate is definitely in order. This guy is spewing about the constitution, but wont even reference it. I think I'm right, he thinks he is right......ah the beauty of a debate.


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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-03-2006, 01:31 PM
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I thought the seatbelt debate died when seatbelts became mandatory in cars?

LOL "I have the right to litter the roads with my body parts the way i choose to" sure man, but if that's what you want you should have to pay a predetermined sum for the removal of your corpse etc. by licenced personel if ever necessary also sign forms that if something happens as a direct result of you not wearing protective gear (injuries/death that could have been avoided) that noone you leave behind has the right to sue.
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-03-2006, 07:03 PM
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You made some excellant points there kneedragger.


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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-03-2006, 07:23 PM
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i replied. it's not unconstitutional at all or do you really think those laws would have been around that long? people believe everything is unconstitutional if they disagree with it, but i hate to say it but our government is set up to help the masses and if it is unconstituation andt he masses still want it...guess what? ANOTHER AMENDMENT to make it constitutional. how do tey think those amendments got their int he first place lol


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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-04-2006, 12:05 PM
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It's unbevlievable the mentality of people. Isn't wearing a hemet just good common sense? It's amazing that we need a law to make society do what ther rest of us already realize is for the safety of all. I rode without a helmet once, "once". Upon running down the highway at 70MPH, I had a Picture in my head of me slaming into the concret in a wreck. Since then I always wear a lid.

On the flip side, The "stupid people" population is on the rise, I think we need more ways to thin the heard...

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If people don't regulate themselves, others will do it for them.
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-04-2006, 12:18 PM
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btw heaven help the anti-government fools who join this forum and spread crap w/o facts. arguements w/ facts and depth to them are fine, but many there can't manage that and those type of people will get a vacation from here...


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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-04-2006, 12:18 PM
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either way i'm done w/ that topic. too many people who take it too serious and don't know how to hold a debate in a logical manner


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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-04-2006, 04:43 PM
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corey if you don't want debate just say so...this public forum has moderaters for a reason, free speech has its place with limits. It is the right of the owner of a company or forums to make those limits.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-04-2006, 05:02 PM
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this thread is unconstitutional

prejudices are what fools use for reason
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-04-2006, 05:45 PM
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I think everyone is worried that when any freedom is take away it is one freedom taken away regardless of what it is. there are ways to "encourage" people to do things without laws.. It SHOULD be a question on your motorcycle insurance application "do you EVER ride without a helmet" if you answer yes then your premium is adjusted accordingly. If you answer No I never ride without a helmet but you crash and dont have a helmet your insurance can walk away.
This would encourage people to wear helmets without making them a criminal. it would also lower premiums for those of us who always wear helmets.

I haven't ridden anywhere without a helmet except on the minibike to get the mail for YEARS Its not fun you get hit with bugs and all kinds of stuff coming off cars. But if I wanted to ride around with a bandana and look tough on my chopper that is my choice.


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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-04-2006, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R4Ltony View Post
It's unbevlievable the mentality of people. Isn't wearing a hemet just good common sense? It's amazing that we need a law to make society do what ther rest of us already realize is for the safety of all. I rode without a helmet once, "once". Upon running down the highway at 70MPH, I had a Picture in my head of me slaming into the concret in a wreck. Since then I always wear a lid.

On the flip side, The "stupid people" population is on the rise, I think we need more ways to thin the heard...
But tony onthis same token the majority of americans would say "isn't not riding a 400lb 150hp machine that offers no protection around 5000lb SUVs good common sense??"
The answer is yes it is. If you step back and think rationally it is pretty stupid to zip around on a motorcycle when Hummers are out there being driven by soccer moms on cell phones. If you are in a fight with them you lose there is no if. So riding a motorcycle let alone super powerful motorcycle around is pretty stupid.

but you know what? its fun and we like so people should let us do what we like.

Lets just face it. Anything worth doing is dangerous or illegal.


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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-04-2006, 05:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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this thread is unconstitutional



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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-04-2006, 09:10 PM
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dontpool: did i say i dont' want debate? i said when you want to argue and state this and that and not back it up and have no factual data it's nothing but annoying and argueing to argue...especially when you enter put-downs into the "arguement".

that's why i stopped going into off-topic over there. too bad you cant' do a script on a forum to check a persons maturity before giving them access to an area where a debate will start


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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-04-2006, 09:15 PM
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stone: fact of the matter is this is a utilitarian society we live in and most people want people on a bike to wear a helmet. doesn't matter if they ride or don't ride, it's what the public wants to see. so that's the law. those who think it's their right to not wear a helmet? well it's not not if you live in a state that requires a helmet. the government can make laws to protect the stupid, make the majority of the people happy, or whatever you want to call it.

when the majority disagrees with a law it will probably change in time (prohibition?). but most want to see a guy on a bike wearing a helmet so that's the law and everyone else can bitch a moan, but they need to realize they are the minority.

hate to say it, but drugs are another law to protect the stupid. jay walking, seatbelts, stop serving someone who is drunk at a bar, etc...people need to realize you can bitch and moan, but if you're in the minority you won't get a lot accomplished in this country.


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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-05-2006, 02:12 PM
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But fact of the matter is also that the majority of people on the road dont want bikes on the road either. as sad as it is we are still seen as a danger to ourselves and to others. I think we should set a good example by wearing a helmet when we ride but then again I'll be riding to the jackson trip next year with nothing but a bandana tied low and my loc sunglasses on. Becuase it is my responsibility.
Just because the public wants something doesn't mean its right. The average american is about the intelectual equivalent of my pet Newt.

There is also the question of whether or not helmet laws save lives. Common sense would say yes But I've been looking online and I found this site with some statistics.
The fact being that many laws are put in place with poor research and poor data to back them up.

http://www.abate-of-maryland.org/xhmt_pa.htm
WHat I have been finding online is that the states with mandatory helmet laws and those with no helmet laws have very similar death/crash ratio.
This would mean that they dont help so if a helmet law doesn't help why take someones freedom away from them?

Becuase it appeases the stupid average american so they feel warm a cuddly and will vote for their rep who penned the bill.

Instead of doing something that would really help motorcycle death rates.
1. Make it necessary for people to start out on smaller bikes. I've lost 2 friends to this. I would be totally against this if I were 16 but its smart. A similar step system to what is used in some EUropean states. And you dont even have to do it be "law" do it by insurance premiums give the insurance companies the go ahead to charge $1500 per month to the idiot who buys a hayabusa for his first bike. The rest of us will jsut ahve to look like dorks on a 50cc scooter for 1 season and deal with it.
2. COMPLETELY revamp drivers ed and motorcycle tests. These are the most worthless tests in the world. Who the hell cares if you can do a figure 8 in a small box without putting your foot down. Has this EVER saved anyone's life? Panic Breaking, Sliding the bike, how to crash, obstacle evasion (I know this is part of it but its a joke). Also teach the idiots driving cars how to drive!! Instead of what the laws are. NO ONE in the US knows how to drive we are the most incompetent nation of drivers in the world. I think it was Time that had an article on Germany. There are many unrestricted speed zones in germany yet they have a much lower crash/death ratio than we do.

If you can honestly say that a helmet law is a better fix to people dying on motorcycles than actually teaching people how to drive vehicles then you are an idiot.


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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-05-2006, 02:35 PM
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dontpool: did i say i dont' want debate? i said when you want to argue and state this and that and not back it up and have no factual data it's nothing but annoying and argueing to argue...especially when you enter put-downs into the "arguement".

that's why i stopped going into off-topic over there. too bad you cant' do a script on a forum to check a persons maturity before giving them access to an area where a debate will start
I was semi joking because my thread that contained facts was closed because someone thought they were right and didnt want to hear them...
:comperror

The problem with most debates people can't seperate the topic into issues and then discuss the issues in seperate... way to often it is just a mess with people going back and forth on different issues thinking they are related.

IE: Helmet laws and Insurance. Security and Privacy. Discussing the issue and the issue itself.

All in all personally I think its good to have discussion, my problem is when mods close threads because they dont like the topic because its to contraversial or they are involved. Mods have every right to moderate an insult or off-topic, but moding a topic because its causes a discussion is questionable.

I don't think this post is totally off topic because its all about debate and I have seen topics mod'd here because they caused debate. Everyones entitled to their opinion, and everyones entitled NOT to listen to other people opinion. If the board doesn't want to thats its choice.
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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-05-2006, 02:43 PM
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Stone: helmet laws vs insurance vs motorcycle saftey issues

helmet laws are like seat belt laws are like speed limits.

insurance is just a scam... if your paying different premiums then it sorta defets the purpose, why not just enforce a person to have a certain amount of money if they want to drive a certain car. If I have a billion dollars why do I need to pay an insurance company to drive?

motorcycle safety is based off the rider. Some people ignore speed limits, ignore drinking limits, or any limits they are given. Some people you can never protect. For the most part the motorcycle saftey courses are an excellent place to start for new riders. The problem is that those people that ignore limits are the same ones that buy an R1 for their first bike, and kill themselves.
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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-05-2006, 08:17 PM
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dontpntpool: i didn't know the particulars about what you're talking about but i'll openly admit i don't get involved in what the mod/admins do unless it's way overboard. if i did then nobody would want to be a mod/admin here.

yes debates are good if they are kept rational, logical, and w/o put downs/smart ass remarks.

i got an r1 for my first bike. i'm convinced that buying a smaller cc bike will help, but in the end it's up to the rider and his maturity. granted a smaller cc bike will help, but still...maturity is maturity and nowadays a 600cc bike will kill you just about as fast as a 1000cc bike


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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-05-2006, 08:32 PM
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a 600cc bike will kill you just about as fast as a 1000cc bike
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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-05-2006, 09:44 PM
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a 600cc bike will kill you just about as fast as a 1000cc bike
A coworker asked me to go with him to check out a 600 as a first bike today. I told him to get a 250, needless to say he didn't want to look uncool. He said that he was stuborn and wouldn't change his mind, so i might as well help him check it out. I told him if he wanted to look cool, get an R1 and wear one of those brain buckets. Then i told him he'd look cool while crashing :jimmie You guys might think i'm harsh but i've worked with this guy for a few years and don't think he should even get a 250, at least until he grows up. Do you guys have friends that want to start riding but you know they are bad drivers and might end up in trouble? I've got one friend that wants to start riding and i don't have the heart to tell him that his driving sucks.
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