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post #1 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 01:49 AM Thread Starter
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Subject: Semper Fi

A strong but in my mind correct point of view regarding a 71-year-old
retired Marine, the 2nd Amendment and the right to carry.
"Police investigate the scene."
The 71-year-old retired Marine who opened fire on two robbers at a
Plantation Florida sub shop late Wednesday, killing one and critically
wounding the other, is described as a former pilot for two presidents.
John Lovell. ``He doesn't drink, he doesn't smoke, he works out everyday.''
Lovell was a man of action Wednesday night.
According to Plantation police, two masked gunmen came into the Subway at
1949 N. Pine Rd. just after 11 p.m. There was a lone diner-- Lovell, who was
finishing his meal. After robbing the cashier, the two men attempted to
shove Lovell into a bathroom and rob him as well.
They got his money. But then Lovell pulled his handgun, opened fire,
shooting one of the thieves in the head and chest and the other in the head.
When police arrived, they found one of the men in the shop. K-9 units found
the other in the bushes of a nearby business. They also found cash strewn
around the front of the sandwich shop.
Detective Robert Rettig of the Plantation Police Department. Both men were
taken to Broward General Medical Center, where one, Donicio Arrindell, 22,
of North Lauderdale died. The other, 21-year-old Frederick Gadson of Fort
Lauderdale is in critical but stable condition.
White, a longtime friend of Lovell, was not surprised to hear what happened.

''He'd give you the shirt off his back and he'd be mad if someone tried to
take the shirt off your back,'' he said. White said Lovell worked as a pilot
for the Marines, flying former Presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B.
Johnson. He later worked as a pilot for Pan Am and Delta. Lovell is not
married and does not have children.
He is not expected to be charged, authorities said. ''He was in fear for his
life,'' Rettig said. These criminals ought to realize that most men in their
70's have military backgrounds and aren't intimidated by idiots.
Something tells me this old Marine wasn't "in fear" even though his life was
definitely at risk. Just waiting. And he better not be charged! More like
rewarded.
The only thing he could be charged with is participating in an unfair fight.

One 71 year young Marine against two punks.
That'll teach them to get between a Marine and his meal.

Semper Fi :gun


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post #2 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 02:03 AM
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He could have just let them have the money, but instead he decided to kill them. I'm glad two peoples' lives are worth whatever he had in his wallet.
post #3 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 02:39 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX85 View Post
He could have just let them have the money, but instead he decided to kill them. I'm glad two peoples' lives are worth whatever he had in his wallet.
I guess the robber felt the same way you do..(just making a point) hahahaha


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post #4 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 06:08 AM
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thats very sad





he only killed one and one survived. the good news is maybe the robber in critical but stable condition will take a turn for the worse.
chalk one up to the good guys John Lovell sounds like a pretty tough old man .
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post #5 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 08:48 AM
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Sounds to me like they already had his wallet and where leaving by the time he shot them. If they had guns trained on him and he went to draw, then they're substantially stupider than we thought.

shooting somebody in the back once the whole thing is resolved isn't cool.
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post #6 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior View Post
Sounds to me like they already had his wallet and where leaving by the time he shot them. If they had guns trained on him and he went to draw, then they're substantially stupider than we thought.

shooting somebody in the back once the whole thing is resolved isn't cool.
Exactly what I was thinking too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harryassman View Post
Time for the college student to learn. Since you seemed to have missed these I'll hit the highlights for you.

1. Cashier aggressed with deadly force.
2. Old man aggressed with deadly force.
3. Old man responded with equal force.
4. 1 dumbass dead, 1 dumbass almost dead.


Some commentary (since college students need to be told what to think).

What's at issue here is not the value of the old mans wallet compared with the value of two thugs lives. That should be easy enough to answer. Life is always important. The key issue here is who's life is important. The cashiers, the innocent customers, the old man's or the thugs?

When aggressed with deadly force it is reasonable and prudent to respond with deadly force.
I didn't miss anything. I just have a different viewpoint. Who needs a lesson now? Oh, and you're wrong.

Last edited by RacerX85; 08-22-2007 at 08:59 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
post #7 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior View Post
Sounds to me like they already had his wallet and where leaving by the time he shot them. If they had guns trained on him and he went to draw, then they're substantially stupider than we thought.

shooting somebody in the back once the whole thing is resolved isn't cool.
You'll note that is says one was shot in the head and chest. Doesn't sound like he's shooting them in the back to me.

I wouldn't exactly call it 'resolved' either. Here you have a situation with two potentially dangerous people who are threatening people with deadly force, i.e. guns, who after they walk out the door could very likely be headed somewhere else with those guns to use against someone else. How is that a resolution?

This man's life was in danger here, and his ability to protect his own life is given by law. Beyond that, he had a means to preventing further deadly risk to other innocent people and he used it, well within the means of the law.
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post #8 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 09:20 AM
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OMG I'm being threatened by deadly force! Oh no! They just wanted an easy dollar. If he's such a badass he would have shot them in the legs and shoulders and incapacitated them. Sounds to me like he let anger get the better of him.
post #9 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX85 View Post
OMG I'm being threatened by deadly force! Oh no! They just wanted an easy dollar. If he's such a badass he would have shot them in the legs and shoulders and incapacitated them. Sounds to me like he let anger get the better of him.
Why would it matter what they were after? They were still threatening his life by pointing those guns at him and he is fully within his rights to respond as he did.
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post #10 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 09:25 AM
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You'll note that is says one was shot in the head and chest. Doesn't sound like he's shooting them in the back to me.
Don't think about the words so much. Put yourself in that situation and think about what most likely happened. He definitely shot them in the back because there is no way in hell he would have pulled off two lethal shots without them at least firing back. IF they were facing him, they froze and were paralyzed with fear, which would indicate that they are not vicious killers that need to be put down for the betterment of society, but rather some hooligan kids that made a poor decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harryassman View Post
Once you've been presented with the opportunity to defend your life against deadly force you then tell me how all those fancy movie moves work out.
MACHO MACHO MAN! I WANT TO BE A MACHO MAN! Fuck that.

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Originally Posted by shagzomatic View Post
Why would it matter what they were after? They were still threatening his life by pointing those guns at him and he is fully within his rights to respond as he did.
He might be within his rights, but that doesn't make it right.

Last edited by RacerX85; 08-22-2007 at 09:25 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
post #11 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 09:31 AM
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Wow, and your experience comes from??? oh the movies cause they are always right.

Join the Marines, get some training, then you'll understand how it's possible.
When I see you headshot a moving person that is actively trying to avoid you with a pistol I'll believe a word you're saying.
post #12 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX85 View Post
Don't think about the words so much. Put yourself in that situation and think about what most likely happened.
Don't think about the words? The words are the only thing we have available to determine fact or fiction here. Putting myself in the situation would be pure conjecture, and to me conjecture is not a solid base to set an argument on. I'm basing my commentary solely on the information provided. They say he shot the gunman in the chest, so there's absolutely no reason to assume he did otherwise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX85 View Post
He definitely shot them in the back because there is no way in hell he would have pulled off two lethal shots without them at least firing back.
There's no possible way you can know this for sure based on the information provided.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX85 View Post
IF they were facing him, they froze and were paralyzed with fear, which would indicate that they are not vicious killers that need to be put down for the betterment of society, but rather some hooligan kids that made a poor decision.
It still doesn't matter who they were, what their mindset was, or whether they were afraid or not. Whether they be vicious killers or stupid kids, they still threatened his life by pointing those guns at him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX85 View Post
He might be within his rights, but that doesn't make it right.
By individual people's moral barometers, no, it may not be considered "right"...which to my mind is useless to debate because personal opinion differs so widely from person to person anyway...and people generally start getting batty when debating things that touch 'morality'.

Personally, based on the information presented, I agree with the law and believe he was justified in defending his life with the means he had available.

Last edited by shagzomatic; 08-22-2007 at 10:08 AM. Reason: I dus spel gud.
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post #13 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 09:59 AM
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As the two tried to force Lovell into the ladies’ room where he thought he would be killed, the former Marine reached behind his back to grab his .45-caliber handgun, which he fired seven times at the two men, according to the police statement.
http://www.militarytimes.com/news/20...obbery_070702/
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post #14 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 10:02 AM
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I'm always up to learn a new skill, and my marksmanship could definitely be improved. It all comes down to personal opinion, but I do have a concealed weapons permit(I don't carry though), and if I were in that situation and I had my piece, I would have given them the money and called the cops.
post #15 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 10:11 AM
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Maybe you should read the article that macattack linked. If you would have given them the money you would likely be dead.

He wasn't being forced to the ladies room so he could buy them tampons.
I read it, but I figured they were trying to tie him up so he couldn't follow them and call the cops. Maybe I'm too naive.
post #16 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX85 View Post
I read it, but I figured they were trying to tie him up so he couldn't follow them and call the cops. Maybe I'm too naive.
You've apparently got far more faith in mankind than I do.
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post #17 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX85 View Post
He could have just let them have the money, but instead he decided to kill them. I'm glad two peoples' lives are worth whatever he had in his wallet.
oh hell no! that marine had every right and in fact a duty to ghost those turds. good job marine
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post #18 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 10:26 AM
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racer what if you gave the scroats yourmoney and then at the next stop they killed a grandmother. would it still be ok to let them live.
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post #19 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX85 View Post
I'm always up to learn a new skill, and my marksmanship could definitely be improved. It all comes down to personal opinion, but I do have a concealed weapons permit(I don't carry though), and if I were in that situation and I had my piece, I would have given them the money and called the cops.
first I want to say I commend your decision not to carry your gun . you would probably be dead in this hypothetical situation but something to think about is that the bad guys would take your gun off your dead body. carrying a hand gun comes with a ton of responsibility. if you ever decide to carry your gun you may want to rethink your stance on when to kill and when to hand over your cel phone and wallet and weapon.
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post #20 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-22-2007, 10:38 AM
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racer what if you gave the scroats yourmoney and then at the next stop they killed a grandmother. would it still be ok to let them live.
Can't say because I have no way of knowing if they would in fact kill people. Just because they are carrying guns does not mean they are willing to kill people. Am I the only one who sees this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX85 View Post
Maybe I'm too naive.
Actually on second thought, maybe I am reading this right. If they wanted to kill him what would be the point of taking him into the toilet? Less of a mess for the owners to clean up? If they were gonna kill the two guys they would have shot them dead on the spot.

Last edited by RacerX85; 08-22-2007 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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