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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-07-2010, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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gun question?

I have a bet that a 4.10 pistol has less kick or recoil than a 4.10 shotgun.

I base this on that there is less barrel and less chance of kick because of the shorter barrel.

I am taking in to fact that a gun/shotgun is going to be heavier and would have less kick because of the weight.

I cant find the facts that I need on the net. So please post facts either way please.


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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-07-2010, 07:10 PM
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I have no facts, but my brain tells me it should be about the same.
assuming identical ammo, there is an equal amount of force being transmitted from the bullet to the gun. The heavier weight of the rifle should make it slightly less noticeable if anything.


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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-07-2010, 07:42 PM
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If you built a very large scale and put a helicopter on it measured the weight to come out to exactly 1 ton. surprising as it sounds as it took off and got a few feet off the scale the scale would still be reading 1 ton.

what I am saying is the force of the shell has not changed if all things are equal like no springs in the shotgun . the force is the same only the pressure point is changed so in some ways the shoulder may feel more narrowed force of the blast as the butt(of the shotgun) gives a small straight path for the energy to be transferred .

a smaller barrel gun will loose some of the kick in that the gun moves from side to side twists and cambers , and your hands act like a shock absorber. but the force of the blast and measured kick if both guns were put in a vise would be equal - single shot shot gun and pistol. I think my 44mag will hold a 410 but I've never tried it .
measured force both are the same IMO
a handgun has more room for absorption so it feels like there is less kick than a shotgun.
my auto shotgun has a much longer barrel than my pump gun. but the kick is almost non existent on the auto and the pump with the short barrel has turned several peoples shoulders purple .

no facts here either just my opinion. LOL

David
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-07-2010, 08:04 PM
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the energy transmitted will certainly be different to the square of the difference in muzzle velocities.

Kinetic energy transmitted to the charge is 0.5*bullet mass*muzzle velocity^2

With that said force and energy aren't the same, and the energy the shotgun transmits will be transmitted over a slightly longer time, however at the moment that the charge is at the point in the shotgun barrel where the piston barrel has ended, the recoil should be identical. However the shotgun is continueing to kick as the charge gets past that point, but the rate it's kicking at is diminishing quickly, (bigger volume of hot gas behind the charge).

And as mentioned, the mass of the guns will come into account, but only if your arm actually moves (which it will) If you bolted them both solid to a table and fired the force exerted would be the same, but since it's moving it's delaying the full force from hitting your arm. It's effectively a mass damper.

But then again the firing positions are different too, so it's not really apples to apples.

However I will say this. If I was designing a pintel for the 2, I certainly would never build the pintel for the duckgun lighter than the one for the pistol.

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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-07-2010, 09:42 PM
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the longer barrel gives your round a higher velocity in your shotgun
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-07-2010, 11:14 PM
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Interesting read for sure.... I love things like this lol



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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-07-2010, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snair View Post
the longer barrel gives your round a higher velocity in your shotgun
bingo. Which aughta equate to more kick, more kick total but maybe a longer kick rather than a harder one, if that makes sense.

This is funny 'cause it's remarkably similar to some big-bang engine math I was working on for an engineering paper last month. Which is worse, a big sucker punch and then nothing or a long smooth curve, or a big sucker punch that tapers off, like being hit with a 20# dead-blow hammer. If there was such a thing.

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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 06:10 AM
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I still think the every action has an equal and opposite reaction applies here.
I also think if you built a special gun butt for the pistol that allowed the shooter to place the gun on the shoulder like a shotgun the perceived kick would be equal.

The mass of the gun is more of a factor IMO than the actual length of the barrel.

One more thing to think about is
On my two shot gun story the one gun is an auto and the other is a fixed breach . even though the auto feels like it has less kick it would actually according to newtons law have the same recoil just spread out over a longer period of time or spread over several times.

what I am saying is I think the barrel length does make the kick seem less but when measured the actual energy transferred is still the same 4/10 in a short barrel with same mass or close vs 4/10 long barrel .
I also agree the perception is the key and what Junior was saying about the fast punch vs the slow punch makes sense.
My final theory on this is that perceived recoil of a gun is speculative or at least open to interpretation(in this context) . like the heat index it is not a measurable tangible*.



*=unless you fix the guns in a vise and measure

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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macattack View Post
I still think the every action has an equal and opposite reaction applies here.
I also think if you built a special gun butt for the pistol that allowed the shooter to place the gun on the shoulder like a shotgun the perceived kick would be equal.

The mass of the gun is more of a factor IMO than the actual length of the barrel.

One more thing to think about is
On my two shot gun story the one gun is an auto and the other is a fixed breach . even though the auto feels like it has less kick it would actually according to newtons law have the same recoil just spread out over a longer period of time or spread over several times.

what I am saying is I think the barrel length does make the kick seem less but when measured the actual energy transferred is still the same 4/10 in a short barrel with same mass or close vs 4/10 long barrel .
I also agree the perception is the key and what Junior was saying about the fast punch vs the slow punch makes sense.
My final theory on this is that perceived recoil of a gun is speculative or at least open to interpretation(in this context) . like the heat index it is not a measurable tangible*.



*=unless you fix the guns in a vise and measure

i know for a fact that between mac and junior, i am practically retarded in regards to technical knowledge.

buuuuut, mac (or david) the auto gun is using the gases from the explosion to drive the action, "siphoning" some of its kick out by chambering the next round.

as an avid shotgunning enthusiast, i can tell you my remington 1187 auto feels like it kicks alot less than my ruger red label.

just my .02 when comparing semi autos to any other shotgun.

in response to the OP, i have never fired a 410 pistol, but i have a 410 shotgun. sorry nothing real to add to the discussion.


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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggington View Post
i know for a fact that between mac and junior, i am practically retarded in regards to technical knowledge.

buuuuut, mac (or david) the auto gun is using the gases from the explosion to drive the action, "siphoning" some of its kick out by chambering the next round.

as an avid shotgunning enthusiast, i can tell you my remington 1187 auto feels like it kicks alot less than my ruger red label.

just my .02 when comparing semi autos to any other shotgun.

in response to the OP, i have never fired a 410 pistol, but i have a 410 shotgun. sorry nothing real to add to the discussion.

Junior is way over my head , I know what your are saying and agree the perceived and or actual "kick" from a gas auto is much less than a fixed breach but what I meant to say that it is the same energy dissipated/dispersed differently . You are correct. and I have seen the bruised shoulders to prove your point . A day skeet shooting makes my auto seem genius compared to the other gun choices. lol

David

Last edited by macattack; 01-08-2010 at 08:07 AM.
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 08:16 AM
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yea only 410 I have ever dicked around with is my grandfathers and it's seriously gotta be 100 years old now, and ya it knocked me flat on my ass when I was a youngen.

The equal and opposite reaction is the point tho, the charge in the shell detonating is gonna make a bigger bang in the longer barrel because it's got a chance to push more before the pressure is relieved (a lot of it being relieved sideways)

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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 09:15 AM
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I want to post this without getting anyone mad I enjoy the discussion and am well aware I could be wrong , going against junior(on physics) is a bad idea but still I want to be proven wrong rather than just give up so feel free to do so . notice I start out saying "I think" in other words I could be wrong .

again I think you guys are comparing apples to oranges

felt recoil is a interoperation of the kick free recoil is the actual kick
:http://www.saami.org/Publications/
Recoil Calculator
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm
notice on this table the barrel length is not a factor . ^ but mass is
felt recoil is like windchill and heat index and free recoil is like the actual temperature out side not what i feels like .
free recoil is measured in footpounds


http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTec...ts/Recoil.html :
Free Recoil is easy to calculate. You just plug the numbers into the formula and stand back. Felt Recoil is very subjective and is a much vaguer term. Felt Recoil obviously depends to some extend on Free Recoil, but it also depends to a large part on gun fit, proper gun mount, gun action (fixed breech or auto), recoil pads plus any other recoil attenuating devices like recoil reducers or pneumatic strut stocks.

David

Last edited by macattack; 01-08-2010 at 09:30 AM.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 09:35 AM
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I found the answer barrel length vs muzzle velocity Topic of the Month


I still think it would be an almost non distinguishable amount of difference if we were talking about free recoil (measured)


but I think actual numbers in foot pounds would be slightly less with a shorter barrel gun if muzzle velocity is part of the calculation , if the mass is the same , mass is still the bigger factor Maybe ?

so I proved myself wrong LOL

David

Last edited by macattack; 01-08-2010 at 09:40 AM.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 09:38 AM
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ya the muzzle velocity is on the table tho, which is a function of barrel length.

Altho the way they set the table up there's no example of one with the same shot at 2 different velocities, and that's not something I'd work in imperial units on. The equation I listed above tho is I believe the one they're using for free recoil, they're doing it twice, once for the shot, once for the charge gasses (which is somewhat precarious as that's decidedly unsteady flow rather than constant pressure flow like a rocket but I'll let it go because that's a whole round of math I don't wanna get involved in and I don't think it'll affect the outcome much.)

Anyhow, ya the difference in how they're held is gonna be way bigger than the difference in the energy transferred. Add in the fast punch vs slow punch and you're in different leagues again.

ya the energy builds by square tho, 10% extra MV = 21% extra recoil

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Last edited by Junior; 01-08-2010 at 09:38 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 09:50 AM
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the argument is really a one of perception so I think the smaller gun held to your shoulder like a shotgun the kick would be so close it would be hard to tell the difference. IMO the mass of the gun and the way it is held is more the reason a shotgun with a fixed breach feels like it has more kick than the smaller handgun with the same load.
I'm thinking if you measured the free recoil the difference would be somewhat close. because the mass of the handgun is so much less. Or do I have the part of the mass of the weapon wrong?(in reference to the calculation)

David
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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 10:06 AM
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well the mass matters less and less as it moves less and less. I mean if it's rigid mounted and doesn't move at all, the mass of the gun doesn't matter at all.

conversely if they're both left on the floor and fired, or better yet if they're hanging in space and fired, they'll come out of it with different velocities, but the same energy. This is assuming 2 guns with the same charge and shot mass, the same muzzle velocity, and different masses.

Now the energy will be the same, but since the mass is different the velocity will be different.

If I was gonna get really serious with this I'd do a series of experiments with some aparatus that kicks in a controllable and adjustable fashion, and get a group of guys together and test and see what exactly it is about the kick that makes it feel better or worse. I'd wager that heavier is better just on account of the fact that as a rule of thumb usually you're better off being hit by something moving slowly that's heavy than something fast and light.

Like for instance I'd rather be bumped into by a 50,000kg M1 Abrams moving 1 meter/second than a 1kg canonball moving 223m/s which equates to the same energy. I'm more able to "roll with" the tank. But if I'm strapped to a wall then I guess it doesn't much matter, I'm fubar either way.

Anyhow, all this is getting pretty friggin hypothetical. The short answer to Beav's original question is "I don't know forsure but I would bet that the shotgun is more likely to leave a bruise."

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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-10-2010, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beavisr1 View Post
I have a bet that a 4.10 pistol has less kick or recoil than a 4.10 shotgun.

I base this on that there is less barrel and less chance of kick because of the shorter barrel.

I am taking in to fact that a gun/shotgun is going to be heavier and would have less kick because of the weight.

I cant find the facts that I need on the net. So please post facts either way please.
Ever shoot a .357magnum 7" barrel and then a 2.5" or 3" snub nose?
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