Racing MotoGP, WSBK, BSB, AMA, F1, WRC, DTM, NASCAR, etc...

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 07:21 AM Thread Starter
Abusin' the scooter
 
Yamahuh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Karaoke Hell
Posts: 2,106
 
Send a message via Skype™ to Yamahuh
Moto2 v 250 - Is it REALLY that bad??

I will be the first to admit that over the past few years I've not watched as much of the 250's as I used to; mostly due to having to grab them off the internet and download them instead of flicking on my cable/satellite TV and settling down with a beer. That being said I used to watch them a lot and they always provided close, tight action with - usually - a handful of guys mixing it up until the chequered flag and scrapping for the W. Generally speaking, great action and tons of exciting racing -everything it seems that MotoGP has been missing of late.

However, I hear you guys complaining about the amount of electronics that are used nowadays on racing machinery; how it's the bike not the rider, how it takes less skill to ride one nowadays and that he with the deepest pockets / most resources, not necessarily the most talented rider, wins and it begs the question. Couldn't it be good to introduce a class where the engine is common to all teams, electronics are not permitted, tyres are provided by one manufacturer but chassis and suspension can be custom?

I just read an article in Visordown Magazine by non other than ex GP racer and highly respected journalist Niall Mackenzie and he puts it quite succinctly - I quote:

"This year, unless you exchanged both your's and your parent's house with Aprilia for a one year lease deal, there was no way of putting a competitive bike on the grid.
Also, with no national 250cc GP championships anywhere in the world, it's highly unlikely that talented local youngsters would be given 250GP wildcards. And sad as it is, these brilliant bikes bear no resemblance to anything for sale in your local dealer's showroom meaning zero interest for manufacturers"


It's truly sad to see the end of the 250s and all the history they represent but I think he makes some very valid points. People tend to cheer for riders or manufacturers so that will be different - I'm not going to cheer for my favourite chassis or suspension components, but perhaps it's time for a more 'relevant' class?

I'm not trying to be a dick just proposing some other perspectives and wondering aloud; What do you guys think?


Its really hard to take an angry man seriously when hes wearing a bathrobe. - Carl Fogarty
Yamahuh is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 08:12 AM
Gang Green
 
GreenEnvy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,113
 
I think I'm on the same page as you. We don't know how the 600's will be, better or worse racing. I do hope it helps make for a more level playing field, but I'm sure after a couple years it will be back to the same situation as now.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
GreenEnvy is offline  
post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 11:24 AM
No Crying Allowed
 
R1Lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: California
Posts: 20,229
   
I'm looking forward to having another series to watch and follow.... I agree with the above... with the 250cc bikes it's nothing like you will ever see or get your hands on, so the following was not so great at least here in the states.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R1Lover is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 12:14 PM
7c Forever
 
Junior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: the business end of a CAD station.
Posts: 9,879
  
For the last 4 years it's reliably been the best bike racing anywhere. Possible exception for the Mat and Ben show, if you're into the 1 on 1, stags locking horns type combat, which I personally am.

He makes some good points ya, same ones that were made when the 990's showed up. The difference is, that this is essentially a spec class. And I'm still far from convinced that this is the "correct" solution to those problems.

How's about rather than demanding a 600cc class, you get Aprilia to start selling those bikes at their dealers. It's funny tho, a lot of you guys are the same ones that scream that GP is about "unobtainium" when comparing it to WSBK and are now supporting a CBR600rr cup.

HAIL TO THE KING!!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Junior is offline  
post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 12:48 PM
No Crying Allowed
 
R1Lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: California
Posts: 20,229
   
Why do you call it a 600rr cup? lol It's a little more then that... the reason for one engine it to cut cost... why is that a bad idea? Won't it make for closer racing if they are all running the same engine?



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R1Lover is offline  
post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 01:35 PM
7c Forever
 
Junior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: the business end of a CAD station.
Posts: 9,879
  
well I've got a much more clearly defined line between a prototype class and a production class I guess. I don't regard WSBK or MotoGP as inherently better or worse than each other but they're certainly different.

I consider even the spec tire to be a bit of an abomination, a spec engine is essentially nascar.

And I really don't think it's gonna make it cheaper, Aprilia sure aren't gonna spend any less so maybe it'll make it cheaper for Aspar's team, but I sure don't recall Aspar bitching that it was too expensive. And there's been plenty of occations that the others have run at the front, the reason it's getting "so bad" is because KTM boycotted the class when they heard the Moto2 rules were coming. A self fullfilling prophecy. And I don't blame them one bit for not wanting to do Honda's advertising for them in Moto2.

But ya, in a nutshell... production stuff in the production class, prototype stuff in the prototype classes, not "mix and match."

I mean if WSBK introduced a prototype 750cc 2-stroke in a production chassis class I'd be equally pissed off, irrelevant of the fact that I think that'd be a bitchen awesome class.

HAIL TO THE KING!!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Junior is offline  
post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 02:51 PM
250 cc pilota.
 
Gustav O's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posts: 2,223
  


Or as Harlad Bartol put it when the plans was revealed.
"We are in Grand Prix Racing, so why would we use a street engine? This is like a jockey riding a donkey in a horse race...."

The "save money" aspects is in my opinion a lot of BS as well. The top teams will spend just as much money as they always do becuase they want to win. according to Spanish media Aspar and Gresini calculate with budget around 2.5-2,6 million Euros to run one bike for one season wich is roughly the same as for a 250. That is roughly 3,275 million USD. For the top teams htis is slightly less but for the smaller teams it will be more expensive than 250s.

We have already seen two teams that was on the preliminary list, Team KR one of them, not make the first payments and only one team on the "spare list" was able to pay for one of the last slots. I think we will see more teams fold before 2010 and during the season because it is very expensive.

The costs are also re shuffled so the riders need to bring even more money to the table. Unless you have 200 000 € you are not even considered for the smallest teams and you need to bring around 500 000 -600 000 € to get a top ride.
The first year the lease money for the engines will be partly paid by Dorna.
The engines from Honda also have a problem of delivering the goods. They get around 135 bhp, 150 bhp was promised, and have difficulties getting decent mileage out of them...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Gustav O; 11-14-2009 at 02:59 PM.
Gustav O is offline  
post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 03:39 PM
7c Forever
 
Junior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: the business end of a CAD station.
Posts: 9,879
  
yea seeing KR fold up and out was not something that I enjoyed, either time. And yes, it's very true there's very good riders that aren't even considered unless they can bring 1/4 million euros to the table in sponsor money. To put that in perspective, that's in the same ballpark as Checa used to bring to top class rides when we were all bitching that he sucked and was basicly paying to take the ride from someone decent.

HAIL TO THE KING!!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Junior is offline  
post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
Abusin' the scooter
 
Yamahuh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Karaoke Hell
Posts: 2,106
 
Send a message via Skype™ to Yamahuh
What about his contention that the 250cc class was not an active class anywhere else in the world; there were no national level 250 series that could provide riders as wildcards? I guess the statement in and of itself is true but I'm not sure of the actual validity of that argument as it's always seemed to me that the 125 class provided riders who moved 'up' to the 250s and were there really ever many wildcard riders in 250s anyways? I guess the fact that William Dunlop failed to qualify at Valencia proves that it's tough to qualify against competition who have come up through the ranks but isn't that also an indication of the 'exclusivity' of the series? Put another way - was there ever really any other way for a rider to 'break into' 250s other than coming up from the 125s?

Again, just asking...

Its really hard to take an angry man seriously when hes wearing a bathrobe. - Carl Fogarty
Yamahuh is offline  
post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 06:07 PM
7c Forever
 
Junior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: the business end of a CAD station.
Posts: 9,879
  
There's been more wildcards in 250 than in any other GP class for the last couple of years anyhow.

As far as new ways to break into it, there's guys that have come into it from all kinds of places, including supersport which everyone seems to be so hot on. The thing is that since Yamaha have stopped making the TZ's, nad Honda have quit the RS's, people are trying to qualify on a 1996 TZ250 and then are all shocked when they can't do it. But really, try qualifying for supersport on a '96 ZX6 and see how that goes. There've been a fair few did manage to qualify tho. Including Adam Roberts, on a 2000 TZ250 that he was wrenching on himself.

HAIL TO THE KING!!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Junior is offline  
post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 07:25 PM Thread Starter
Abusin' the scooter
 
Yamahuh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Karaoke Hell
Posts: 2,106
 
Send a message via Skype™ to Yamahuh
Fair enuff...

Its really hard to take an angry man seriously when hes wearing a bathrobe. - Carl Fogarty
Yamahuh is offline  
post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 08:58 PM
I dont inhale
 
vcyclenut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,437
  
last year an american that races in ccs florida and some ama events, barett long, qualified for the 250 but it got rained out, this year he missed the needed time

he had perry melnechec (sp?) wrenching for him. Perry was rich olivers teamate when the ama still had 250's. He has wrenched for factory honda, and ducati in the ama. Supposedly he cashed in a lot of favors to get barrett some trick parts but he was still like 15mph down.

anyway ill wait to make an opinion till it plays out, lets just hope it doesnt turn into the yawn fests most of the moto gp races have been the last couple years, at least up front.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vcyclenut is offline  
post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-16-2009, 12:46 PM
Member
 
Axxexs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 63
 
Feels like Mackenzie just say things that will make headlines. So he did get his attention just like other scandal celebertys do.

If he just did go out to his own country he would find a 250cc Championship. The race with less riders this year was 34 riders there, I think. Some race they been 44 riders. And there is 250 Championships in more countrys.

But its true a lot countrys did stop with 250cc when MotoGP did come with the 4-stroke 2002 and there was a lot of rumours about what should be happen to 250cc. Some of this countrys did take the class back for some year.

Some of the young promissed riders dont want to risk anything and go safe to production based classes. So yes its also true that it can be more people doing the racing in 250cc for they like this class then to do any international carreer.

To be in Moto2 you also have to "exchanged both your's and your parent's house". No different there.

There was 56 riders that did seek wild card for the Valenciafinal in 250GP. And its not that everyone can seek a wild card. You must have the application passed from youre national federation.

That Honda and Yamaha did make 250cc bikes for "club-racers" and then stop with makin them (official said, you can still buy a Honda 250cc and they build it) have not so much to do with the world GP class. Its a prototype class and you can buil youre own bike. In Moto2 that have a feeling of less prototype there is no bikes to buy from Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki..

EZPELETA DIMISIN!

Last edited by Axxexs; 11-16-2009 at 12:50 PM.
Axxexs is offline  
post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-16-2009, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
Abusin' the scooter
 
Yamahuh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Karaoke Hell
Posts: 2,106
 
Send a message via Skype™ to Yamahuh
I think calling Niall Mackenzie a 'scandal celebrity' is a bit of a stretch...as for the validity of the rest of your remarks, I honestly cant say as I've not done enough research.

Its really hard to take an angry man seriously when hes wearing a bathrobe. - Carl Fogarty
Yamahuh is offline  
post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-16-2009, 06:34 PM
7c Forever
 
Junior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: the business end of a CAD station.
Posts: 9,879
  
MacKenzie isn't exactly unbiased when it comes to not being able to afford a great ride tho.

Not that I blame him, he was a hell of a rider, just had the misfortune to show up at exactly the wrong moment.

HAIL TO THE KING!!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Junior is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Sport Bike Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Moto2 Silly Season. Gustav O Racing 31 01-02-2010 03:17 PM
MotoGP Kallio: 125 to 250 bigger step than MotoGP. valerossi Racing 9 10-30-2008 03:28 AM
You think you had a bad day at work DRAGULA Anything Goes 4 02-25-2008 08:09 AM
Good and Bad foods. STONE Workout / Rider Fitness 5 08-10-2007 01:23 AM
The Good, The Bad And The Ugly No1stunner Anything Goes 10 08-27-2006 03:36 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome