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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-03-2009, 06:30 AM Thread Starter
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Noyes on the 1000cc engines

Part 1
MOTO-RACING - MOTOGP: 1000cc In 2012 (Or Even 2011) Pt. 1 - SPEEDtv.com

Part 2
MOTO-RACING - MOTOGP: 1000cc For 2012 (Or Even 2011) Pt. 2 - SPEEDtv.com

Part 3
MOTO-RACING - MOTOGP: 1000cc For 2012 (Or Even 2011) Pt. 3 - SPEEDtv.com



Coles Notes:
-We might see 1000 production motors running against 800cc prototypes as soon as 2011. With 1000 prototypes making a return in 2012

-Fecal missiles are on ballistic trajectories towards rotating ventilation devices. Neither Dorna nor IMS are going to back down on the technical challenge.

-There will be a bore/stroke ratio rule implemented

____________________________________

Jr's notes.

Dorna plus the MSMA have enough votes to push the rule change thru even if the FIM attempt to block it, and Honda run the MSMA and have said they want the 1000's, Rossi runs Dorna and has said HE wants 1000's so it's a done deal, it's gonna happen, even if the FIM try to block it. If the wording of the contract is what I suspect it is, there's nothing in it to prevent the production engines in MotoGP, however I'd wager that the WSBK contract also offers them exclusivity of the production engines. Meaning the FIM will be liable for the charges that the Flammini brothers are SURE to put forth. Now this is also an FIM internal power play as the Flammini friendly chief just got punted forcibly in an internal power shift and replaced with an Ezpeletta puppet. I'd say this is a fairly monstrous counterpunch that will deal a very serious blow to the FIM financially. They're caught between Dorna (aka: Rock) and ISM (aka: Hard Place) and tethered to both.

Now the bore/stroke ratio rule is a big kick in the nuts aimed squarly at Ducati. I've seen the cad cutaways and I've done a fair bit of acoustical analysis on these bikes, and I would be very surprised if the Ducati is running anything "squarer" than 86mm bore on a 34mm stroke. And I wouldn't be at all shocked if it was closer to 90/31, which is obviously approaching 3:1 bore:stroke ratio. The others are more like 1.7-2

this is part of why the Ducati is able to rev so hard. That plus the fact that it's valvetrain allows it to without lunching itself. The limit they're looking at implementing is in the 1.7-1.8 range. This is gonna force Ducati to build a more "normal" engine. and plays into the hands of the Japanese.

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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-03-2009, 07:29 AM
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a few years ago I may not have been so happy about the hybrid thing I dunno .
but now it the current state of motogp and the money needed to keep it going I would probably support topless umbrella girls if it meant gp did not die.

wait who am I kidding I've always thought that was a good idea

David

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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-03-2009, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macattack View Post
wait who am I kidding I've always thought that was a good idea


it should be an interesting season in 2011

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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-06-2009, 12:01 AM
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Interesting notes JR..... love them...



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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-06-2009, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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why thank you sir! *takes a bow*

There's been topless grid girls before, just the TV doesn't generally cover them, lol. There was a couple at the WSBK race at Portimao that were "dressed" in bodypaint, Demi Moore style.

And ya, on the prototype vs production vs hybrid... it's a mess. Personally I don't see a problem with this, it's not like it's a spec engine a la Moto2/Nascar, I mean the WSBK engines fit the rules other than the "not from 'production processes'" rule which is awfully slippery from a legal concept anyhow. I mean I used to work at a prototyping aluminum foundry, and what we cast there would be considered "prototype" but 9 times out of 10 it was indistinguishable from one made across the street at the production plant, but we needed it for a control group. I seriously wouldn't be able to tell it from a production one, and if the engineer that's cutting them apart can't tell the difference, how's the FIM guy supposed to?

Also, the traditional rules (1949 until Dorna takeover) didn't make any caveats about what "process" the engine had to come from. Infact if you wanted to pull up to the grid on a bike that still had turn signals on it that was perfectly legal until Dorna bought the place out. Ofcourse now with IMS owning the rights to WSBK it's... sticky, to say the least.

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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-09-2009, 12:12 AM
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Where will this all end? Personally I do not like the idea of "standard engines" in prototype frames. For me GPs are the pinnacle of engineering and racing and should still be. Dornas ideas is not to my liking but maybe IŽll change my mind....some day.

If anyone had any doubts about the importance of the meeting of the Grand Prix Commission at Geneva on December 11th, Carmelo Ezpeleta's charm offensive in the media should remove them completely. Ezpeleta spoke to Motoworld.es on Friday about the new regulations due to come into force in 2012, and today, the Dorna CEO gave an extended interview to the Spanish sports daily AS.com, in which he expanded on the changes.

Ezpeleta's main purpose with the interview was to make clear that the switch back to 1000cc will not in any way impinge on the World Superbikes series' territory. The bikes, Ezpeleta emphasized are prototypes, and will have nothing to do with production bikes. "There will not be a word in these regulations about production engines," Ezpeleta told AS.com. The bikes are prototypes, and which engine was used was entirely up to the builder of the bike, not something set out in regulations.

When pressed by AS.com's Mela Chercoles on the question of exactly what a prototype is, the Dorna boss was completely clear. "We have always raced prototypes," Ezpeleta said, "but that's because it is the bike which is a prototype, not the engine." Ezpeleta dismissed the discussion about using production engines as irrelevant. The Flamminis objections that the rules should state that no part of a production bike may be used in MotoGP held no water, according to the Dorna boss. "Taking that argument to the absurd, you could say that we cannot use a chain drive, as the chains we use are production parts," Ezpeleta argued.

The argument came down to one simple point, according to Ezpeleta: "Was the bike built for racing, or is it a bike you can buy for the street, then adapted for racing?" The bike is the deciding factor, not the brakes or the engines or any constituent part.

Ezpeleta then went on to discuss the reasoning behind the switch. It was all about costs, he explained, and making racing affordable again. "Now, [the 800cc bikes], at the price they are, cannot be sustained and the satellite teams cannot afford to race." Deciding to move to 1000cc would be significantly cheaper, Ezpeleta said, it would be cheaper for factories to build new bikes or for teams to build a new bike around any existing engine they liked.

This latter point is key, for as Ezpelete explained, currently, satellite teams can only race by the grace of the factories. Their only option under the current system is to request to lease a bike from the factories. Allowing 1000cc engine menas that either building a bike around an existing engine or building an engine itself will be considerably cheaper.

The problem that many people have raised is that although horsepower may be cheaper to produce from a 1000cc engine than from an 800, there is nothing to stop costs from spiralling out of control if the factories are building 1000cc prototypes. According to Ezpeleta, the Grand Prix Commission have come up with a solution. He would not be drawn on the precise nature of that solution, but said it was simple and effective. "There is one parameter which I cannot talk about before Friday, but it's the key to everything" he told AS.com. "It looks like being a silver bullet solution, and with this, everything else changes. It is a single parameter and it changes everything. It's a technical area, very simple."

Ezpeleta's reference is intriguing. Previously, it seemed as if restriction the bore and stroke ratio would be the way to limit piston speed, and therefore costs. The risk is that extremely expensive lightweight materials could be used to try and get round these limits, as the problem of piston speed is one of momentum, and reducing piston mass would allow increases in piston speed. If limiting piston speed is the aim, then perhaps the "silver bullet" put forward by Ezpeleta is a straightforward rev limit. It had previously seemed impossible that the factories would agree to such a step, but the financial crisis has seen the factories stances radically revised.

That is just speculation, however. The details will, hopefully, be revealed on Friday. It looks like being a momentous day for the future of MotoGP.

Ezpeleta: | MotoMatters.com | Kropotkin Thinks


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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-09-2009, 12:53 AM Thread Starter
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Historically tho, there wasn't any rule against running a production engine. And there's plenty of examples of small teams running production engines in their own chassis. ELF have done so, there was a team ran a production sled engine at one point too, heavily modified but production castings.

Now historically those teams also failed miserably. I don't see a point tho in making them custom cast a set of cases nearly identical to a production motor just in order to make it difficult. That's one piece of the 4-stroke rules I've never really agreed with. In my opinion there was nothing at all wrong with the WCM engine, rules wise. Only thing wrong with it is that it was slow.

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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-09-2009, 01:17 AM
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Thta is OK with me as well, the WCM debacle was pathetic from FIM. What I donŽt like is the idea of even more restricted rules for the engines, ie. Moto2 rules. etc.


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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-09-2009, 06:09 AM Thread Starter
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yea spec engines is trash imo. I'm of the mind that MotoGP aughta be "run what you brung" If that means a bone stock GSXR1000 with the turn signals still on... go ahead, but don't expect to win, lmao. If it means a nitrous injected 8 liter rotary engine... rock on, lets see how she goes.

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