Technique Questions, Comments, Advice...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-03-2007, 05:52 PM Thread Starter
Old and fast...
 
Older Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Laguna Beach, CA
Posts: 955
 
Weaving doesn't help warm tires

Posted over at the ZX-10.net forum:

Weaving Makes For Good Collisions By Dave Swarts

Weaving to warm tires is a fiction that just won't die. All sorts of
riders who should know better can be seen weaving wildly on warm-up
laps, and we've seen plenty of collisions and near-misses caused by one
guy weaving into another guy on a warm-up lap. Yet some riders persist
in the belief that weaving actually does something other than create a
hazard. So, since we had gathered a test bike, a test rider, all sorts
of measuring instruments, some extra tires, and had a track to ourselves
for our big tire test (Roadracing World, January, 2000), we decided to
test the effects of weaving on motorcycle tire temperatures.

We conducted this experiment using Mark Junge and his 1999 Kawasaki
ZX-6R, at Oak Hill Raceway. Michelin tires were used for this test, the
front a standard Pilot Race, and a Pilot Race "W" on the rear. First, we
measured the cold tires' core temperature in the middle and on both
sides of the tread, front and rear. We then sent Junge onto the track to
ride slowly in a straight line and then measured the tire temperatures.
Then we instructed Junge to weave aggressively from turn eight to turn
two and back again (approximately one-half mile), and measured the tire
temperatures again to see how much heat was produced in the tires.

Next, we let the Michelins cool off. We then heated the tires on warmers
for 45 minutes per Michelin's recommendation and took the tire
temperatures. Then Junge went out and did the same weaving and
temperatures were taken again to see if additional heat was built up or
if heat was lost.

Next, Junge was sent on a standard warm-up lap. We then quickly measured
the tire temperatures. Then Junge did another 1.8-mile warm-up lap, this
time weaving, and we measured the temperatures again to see if weaving
built additional heat when compared to a standard warm-up lap, kept the
heat in, or lost the heat. Then we did the half-mile of weaving again
before taking the tire temperatures yet another time.

To complete our test of tires and temperatures, we sent our rider out on
two normal warm-up laps. Once back on the starting grid, we stopped the
bike with the tires remaining on the pavement just as you would sit on a
grid with the 3-minute board in the air. Then we measured each tire, as
quickly as possible, to see how quickly the tires lost the heat built up
on the warm-up lap.

The first thing that we discovered while trying to take the temperature
of the cold tires was that the sun has a significant effect on a tire's
temperature. Our test bike was under a canopy but the front tire was
still in direct sunlight on an 88-degree, Texas afternoon. Just from
sitting in the sun, the front tire had between 10 to 20 degrees more
heat at the tread's core, not the surface.

When Junge rode in a straight line at line at approximately 40 mph for
about a half-mile, the shoulder of the tire that was in the shade
remained at 85-88 degrees F. The temperature at the center of the tires
went up slightly while the shoulder of the tire facing the sun also
started picking up heat. Then our rider went on his weaving course and
came back. Once again the side of the tire facing away from the sun and
the center changed very little. The side of the tire facing the sun
continued to gain heat. We attributed this solely to the sun as Junge
was careful to weave equally hard on each side of the tires.

Junge went back to his task of learning Oak Hill on his "A-bike" while
we took the weaving test bike back under the canopy and applied Tyr Sox
tire warmers for 45 minutes. After the warmers, the rear tire had about
129 degrees F across its entire tread while the front held 171 degrees F
on the right, 175 degrees F on the left, and 182.4 degrees F in the
center. Both warmers were on for the equal amounts of time.

Just as I was organizing a theory into how the tire warmers have equal
heating elements but the (120) front tire has less surface than the
(180) rear tire, I noticed that the bike had been put back in its
original parking spot with the front wheel in the sun. Although I can't
rule out my equal tire warmers versus different-sized tires theory, I
can't rule out that the strong sunlight increased the effect of the
warmers.

As soon as we took the post-warmer temperatures, Junge went out to do
the same exact weaving course. The right/away-from-the-sun side of the
rear tire lost 12 degrees of heat. The right side of the front lost 45
degrees. The center of the rear lost 5 degrees of heat. The center of
the front lost 43 degrees. The left side of the rear tire that was
facing the sun stayed steady at 129 degrees while the left front only
lost 36 degrees. Once again weaving did not build or hold the
temperature. The sun had more effect than weaving.

As soon as these temperatures were taken, Junge was sent off to do a
normal hot lap on the twisty, 1.8-mile course. After the hot lap, the
heat in the rear remained fairly constant, cooling just a few degrees.
The front continued to steadily lose its significant tire warmer heat.
However, the left sides of the tires were the warmest parts. We could
not attribute this to the sun because throughout our two-day test, tires
always recorded higher temperatures on their left sides after doing any
laps at speed on the track.

Then, we sent Junge to do an entire lap of weaving. Again, the weaving
failed to hold heat anywhere on the tire. Then Junge once again did his
straight weaving test, and the tires began cooling rapidly. In fact,
during weaving the tires lost heat as rapidly or more rapidly as just
standing still.

For our final test, we sent Junge out to do two laps to get some heat in
the tires. Then as the bike stood still on the racing surface just as it
would on a grid, we measured how quickly the tires lost their heat. I
had originally hoped to measure the six spots on the tires every 10-15
seconds. That proved too ambitious. I ended up measuring each spot every
45-60 seconds. Next time, I'll have two pyrometers. This was very
interesting, though. While the center and right sides of the tires lost
10-12 degrees over a 4-minute time period, the left side of the rear
lost very little heat and the front gained heat from the direct
sunlight.

Here are some conclusions. Tire warmers will produce the highest
pre-race tire temperatures. During the tire comparison test consisting
of 8-10 laps at 100 percent speed, we sometimes did not record
temperatures higher then straight off the warmers. So the best way to
warm tires is to use tire warmers.

The second-best way to warm tires is to take a hot lap. As powerful as
the sun proved to be, a good hot lap produced more heat than time in the
strong sun, and it's quicker, too.

The third-best way to warm tires is to leave the tires in strong, direct
sunlight. Just don't forget to get both sides.

But weaving, no matter how aggressive your lean angle and your speed or
how long the distance covered, does not build any additional heat in a
tire!

So now, we will hopefully never see another unfortunate accident from
useless weaving on a starting grid or pit lane. Case closed.

Comparison Of Tire Temperatures As Affected By
Warming Methods And Ambient Conditions
Ambient Conditions And Temp Probe Location In

---------Sun Rear--Left In Sun Rear--Center In Shade Rear--Right In Sun
Front--Left In Sun Front--Center In Shade Front--Right Warming Method

Cold Tire ------------85-- 87-- 86-- 94-- 105- 98
Straight line, slow --89 --98-- 85-- 95-- 106- 87
Weave aggressively ---96 --99 --87-- 99-- 104- 88
Tire warmers--------- 129 -130- 127- 176- 182- 171
Warmers and weaving --130- 129- 115- 139- 139- 126
Std. warm-up lap -----124- 122- 122- 130- 126- 120
Weave, 1.8 mile ------121- 118- 120- 129- 117- 119
Weave, 0.5 mile ------118- 115- 110- 114- 109- 113

Comparison Of Tire Temperatures As Affected By
Time On Grid And Ambient Conditions

Start Temp -----------128.6- 123.6- 120.8- 129.0- 116.4- 111.6
+0:45 seconds on grid 127.6- 117.0- 115.4- 128.6- 115.6- 110.6
+ 1:45 seconds on grid 126.8- 116.0- 114.6- 128.2- 113.6- 110.6
+2:45 seconds on grid 125.4- 115.0- 112.0- 127.2- 113.6- 106.0
+3:45 seconds on grid 124.0- 111.8- 108.2- 125.6- 113.0- 104.8

All temperatures in Fahrenheit. Track temperature was 86 degrees;
ambient temp in shade was 88 degrees. Cold tire pressure was 30 psi in
front, 28 psi rear. Tests were conducted on Michelin Pilot Race tires.
Reply With Quote

Steve
'11 Green Kawi ZX-10R ABS
Older Guy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-03-2007, 06:12 PM
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,350
  
weaving isnt for warming tires.
It does two things.

1. it allows the rider to CLEAN any debris he may have picked up on pit road off the tires, or find out that something is on them that will not come off.

2. It allows the rider to check that he/she doesn't have low pressure in the tires. Low pressure tires will "squirm" and the rider can feel this.

It's a trust thing.
You verify your trust in your pit crew that things were done correctly.

that is all it is for.


Riding around with a big nut stuck to your ultra sticky, pre-warmed slick or with low tire pressure will lead to bad things.
Finding out either on the warm-up / sighting lap allows the rider to do something about it before they reach corner one in a pack, and end up with a very bad day.
R1Budha is offline  
post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-03-2007, 06:17 PM
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,350
  
actually i'll throw a third thing in for those riders that do not work on their bikes but rather have a full pit crew, although its related to the trust thing.

3. It allows the rider to "feel" the bike andit's working on the warm-up / sighting lap and ensure that nothing feels "not-quite-right".

Like say a loose axle nut or steering stem nut....

its a "feel good" thing, and since intelligent people run the sighting / warm-up lap in single file, it shouldn't lead to any dangerous conditions.
R1Budha is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-03-2007, 06:35 PM Thread Starter
Old and fast...
 
Older Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Laguna Beach, CA
Posts: 955
 
That's not where I see most of this done...it is usually prior to a canyon run....

Steve
'11 Green Kawi ZX-10R ABS
Older Guy is offline  
post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-03-2007, 06:41 PM
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,712
  
Bubba has a point again...
valerossi is offline  
post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-03-2007, 07:51 PM
Resident Redneck
 
Biga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: On This Forum
Posts: 9,793
   
Send a message via Skype™ to Biga
Maybe they are also cleaning their tires







Quote:
Originally Posted by Older Guy View Post
That's not where I see most of this done...it is usually prior to a canyon run....


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Biga is offline  
post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-03-2007, 08:37 PM
Rollin in my 5.0
 
beavisr1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The track........
Posts: 3,628
 
Send a message via Yahoo to beavisr1


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
beavisr1 is offline  
post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-03-2007, 08:51 PM
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,350
  
Quote:
Originally Posted by Older Guy View Post
That's not where I see most of this done...it is usually prior to a canyon run....
the original post talks of warm up laps in the very first paragraph....

so my logical extension of that would be to take it in reference to track riding.....


not canyon riding......


do it before a canyon ride would be mostly for the cleaning effect in my thought process.....
R1Budha is offline  
post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-03-2007, 09:01 PM
Team America Support Crew
 
Warp Racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Thailand
Posts: 7,039
  
Send a message via Yahoo to Warp Racer
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by R1Budha View Post
...............it allows the rider to CLEAN any debris he may have picked up on pit road off the tires, or find out that something is on them that will not come off..................
Exactly what I do it for, to hopefully clear my tyres of any crap (read: debris as I have no choice but to go onto dirt at times and tyre pressures I check before every ride.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ONCE YOU'VE HAD ASIAN, YOU WILL NEVER TOUCH CAUCASIAN
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
OLD AGE AND TREACHERY WILL ALWAYS OVERCOME YOUTH AND ENTHUSIASM
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Warp Racer is offline  
post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-03-2007, 09:18 PM
Master of Sergeants
 
No1stunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Okinawa
Posts: 5,536
  
Send a message via AIM to No1stunner Send a message via Yahoo to No1stunner Send a message via Skype™ to No1stunner
ONLY ABOUT 2 GOOD LAPS will Warm the Tires!


Weaving....I think not, Good piont listed above tho!...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
No1stunner is offline  
post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-03-2007, 10:25 PM
Senior Member
 
DSMPILOT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Band Camp
Posts: 1,626
 
Hell, i'll admit it! I thought it was to "HEAT" the tires Also i thought it was to clean and scrub the tires. I do the weave after the bikes been sittin for a couple of months, only because that bluish film forms on the tire. I also do it when i roll over liquids on the street.
DSMPILOT is offline  
post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-04-2007, 12:32 AM
Trust me, I'm a Ninja
 
Ronin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the Mountains, or right behind you.
Posts: 459
 
Send a message via Yahoo to Ronin
Most riders can't keep the heat in the tires after using tire warmers, much less after weaving for a few feet.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

USMC: We put the "laughter" back in Slaughter.
Ronin is offline  
post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-04-2007, 07:11 AM
Ass Cramp
 
R6Flyby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: 44 53' N 93 13' W
Posts: 2,153
 
Send a message via Yahoo to R6Flyby
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMPILOT View Post
Hell, i'll admit it! I thought it was to "HEAT" the tires Also i thought it was to clean and scrub the tires. I do the weave after the bikes been sittin for a couple of months, only because that bluish film forms on the tire. I also do it when i roll over liquids on the street.

:imwst
Does that make me a
Attached Images
File Type: png squid-shade.png (32.8 KB, 1 views)


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R6Flyby is offline  
post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-04-2007, 07:25 AM
Ta Moko
 
R1Nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Outback
Posts: 8,131
 
I used to laugh at all the riders headed up Ortega Hwy that were weaving. I only do It after stopping along side of the road to get all the rocks off so I don't fling them all over Oldguy

:


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R1Nomad is offline  
post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-04-2007, 08:18 AM
FAsT BOYS
 
Snair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Salt Lake
Posts: 6,095
  
nice
Snair is offline  
post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-04-2007, 08:43 AM Thread Starter
Old and fast...
 
Older Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Laguna Beach, CA
Posts: 955
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R1Nomad View Post
I used to laugh at all the riders headed up Ortega Hwy that were weaving. I only do It after stopping along side of the road to get all the rocks off so I don't fling them all over Oldguy

:
How is that possible since you are usually BEHIND me?


Steve
'11 Green Kawi ZX-10R ABS
Older Guy is offline  
post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-04-2007, 08:47 AM
Ta Moko
 
R1Nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Outback
Posts: 8,131
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Older Guy View Post
How is that possible since you are usually BEHIND me?



you riding out to BS? today:r1budha


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R1Nomad is offline  
post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-04-2007, 08:48 AM Thread Starter
Old and fast...
 
Older Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Laguna Beach, CA
Posts: 955
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R1Nomad View Post


you riding out to BS? today:r1budha
Meeting up with Rick at 8:30 then headed south....not sure where....how's the wind and traffic down there?

And the temperature forecast?

Steve
'11 Green Kawi ZX-10R ABS
Older Guy is offline  
post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-04-2007, 09:08 AM
Ta Moko
 
R1Nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Outback
Posts: 8,131
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Older Guy View Post
Meeting up with Rick at 8:30 then headed south....not sure where....how's the wind and traffic down there?

And the temperature forecast?

No wind today, temps are good, near 80 later, not sure on traffic yet, call me


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R1Nomad is offline  
post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 03-04-2007, 02:58 PM
Ask the Chief
 
Firehawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Right here.
Posts: 10,687
   
Was windy as HELL in Otay...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Firehawk is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Sport Bike Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Just bought new tires cbrgecko General Bike Talk 8 01-29-2007 09:17 AM
New tires? R4Ltony Other Rides 13 03-27-2006 08:05 PM
good deal on sport touring tires GAMBLER General Bike Talk 0 02-23-2006 07:51 AM
MotoGP: FYI: MotoGP race tires info... valerossi Racing 4 08-06-2005 12:37 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome